To call a cleaner a cleaner

[ChilliChoco]

I was hoping to have a new cleaner start working on my house tomorrow- just 3 hours in a semi.
I found her through my previous cleaner who is semi retiring.
I messaged the new one today and asked her to bring id e.g a passport. I said by way of explanation, that I always ask cleaners for this as they are in my home and sometimes by themselves.
She called me 2 minutes later and was livid.
She was so upset that I had called her a cleaner and so I asked what she would refer herself as in English. (She is Polish so I thought it could be a translation issue). She said a housekeeper. I said I had never referred to a cleaner as a housekeeper. I would not mind calling her that of course.

However she was more angry by the fact that I had asked for ID. She didn't really let me explain but said she wanted to see my passport if I wanted to see hers. I did try and say cleaners have never had a problem with that (except one about 7 years ago). Anyway she said she was glad she found out what kind of person I was and she didn't want to work for me.
She then texted me to say I should
delete her number. I have actually blocked her.

in order to retain thread, MNHQ removed small paragraph as potentially disablist and in any case hearsay

YABU to call someone who cleans a cleaner and should not ask for id

YANBU to call someone who cleans a cleaner and can ask for id as normal practice

@gogohm
Op doesn’t and op not employing the cleaner - unless op is paying the cleaners tax/ni/pension/holiday etc.

[quote Bargebill19]@gogohm
Op doesn’t and op not employing the cleaner - unless op is paying the cleaners tax/ni/pension/holiday etc.[/quote]
Tbf here it's very easy to blur into a worker and that's even with paying own tax/ni etc. The distinction between self employed and worker or employee is based on other factors.

This isn't the point but a few people have made it. If ever have to introduce them to someone, I say, "This is (insert first name)." It is obvious they are cleaning.

Of course you need to see her passport; as an employer, you have a responsibility to ensure that she has the right to work in the UK.
Wasn't it Lady Scotland, former Attorney General, that got fined for exactly that a few years ago?
And yes, cleaner from what you described, not a housekeeper.

I’m a cleaner but my actual title is domestic assistant/housekeeper. Personally doesn’t bother me being called a cleaner because that is what I do, but my colleagues get really offended when people call us cleaners. Each to their own!

@SchrodingersImmigrant @ThinWomansBrain

You are either an employee with an employer who sorts out the deductions or you are self employed.

The op is paying for a service, not employing the cleaner as an employer. Just like paying for the services of a plumber.

If the cleaner isn’t self employed or employed by a company from whicch the op is paying for a cleaning service, then she is working cash in hand, which is illegal and whole other post!

It is up to the op what she does ask for. But it isn’t legally necessary for her to check the right to work. She’s not an employer.

@ThinWomansBrain

Of course you need to see her passport; as an employer, you have a responsibility to ensure that she has the right to work in the UK. Wasn't it Lady Scotland, former Attorney General, that got fined for exactly that a few years ago? And yes, cleaner from what you described, not a housekeeper.

I understood she did employ the cleaner - as in was a member of staff on the payroll. So would need to do employer checks. Exclusivity. Not like a self employed cleaner who does 2 hours at this that and the other private homes.

The fact that you aren't paying someone as a Payee doesn't necessarily mean you are correct and HMRC wouldn't class them as workers with different rights.
It's about things like chosing own hours, using own equipment etc.
Pimlico plumbers are an example. Many comlanies and employers tried the "but self-employed" when the person wasn't. In any case, it can be easy to blur the boundaries and end up with a worker.

If your plumber comes every week at the same time for specified period, cannot send someone else and few other bits, you might end up with worker too😁

@headintheproverbial

If you're worried about your home surely you ask for a DBS check not a passport.

YANBU about the cleaner thing tho.

I just want to be able to trace them if they go silent. Know their full name and wherever they live in case I need my keys back. Or yes if they steal, cab inform the police if their details rather than " here is a random mobile number"

Most self employed cleaners I have known in London don't have a dbs. None invoices either and that's fine, it's not a legal requirement to do so is it, if not vat registered.

You (in fact ANYONE reading this who has a cleaner) should ask for proof of ID (photo driving licence/passport or some form of national ID) AND proof of insurance. Those two pieces of ID will give you a REASONABLE assumption that they are who they say they are AND that they are operating as a business/self employed entity. As a cleaner, these are the two things I carry with me. I don’t have a current passport, because it ran out in April 2020 and I don’t plan to renew it right now, as I have no plans to leave the country right now (or for the foreseeable future)!

Please be aware that the only DBS check an individual can get is classed as basic - this does NOT show previous conviction/cautions that are classed as ‘spent’. If you are an employer, you can arrange a standard/enhanced DBS, but this is not the case in your situation.

I think you’ve had enough red flags to NOT allow this person into your home, let alone give them keys!

As for having a problem being called a cleaner … well, what does she think she’s going to be doing? A housekeeper is a very different role (when domestic based)!

@SchrodingersImmigrant. Yea you are right but the op still isn’t an employer and doesn’t have to do employee checks. This is a cleaner doing a couple of hours domestic cleaners - not a fixed, permanent contract like Pimlico plumber or Uber or certain hgv firms which have thankfully been caught by HMRC.
For the op a dbs would be appropriate given fears of theft.

I work for a plumbing firm. Our employees are often asked to show ID by clients. It could be their Gas Safe card or a passport or we could get a phone call as a company and their identity checked.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

Your analogy regarding the plumber in your last paragraph would mean that anyone engaged in building work would in effect be directly employing whoever was onsite. And responsible for their deductions Given they are often a fixed team on site for more than a few days or even weeks. Clearly that isn’t the case! You are paying for a service, they are either employed by the building firms or self employed, but not by you.

Because she's self employed so there's no reason to see her passport or driving license. You could/can however ask her to provide a DBS background check, at your expense. If she came recommend by your previous employee yet the ex employee is now stating the new lady has a complex MH I would honestly suggest looking elsewhere.

IME quite a few (older) people from ex Communist countries feel cagey about people demanding to see their ID. Long finger of history and all that. It took my Russian teacher about 5 years to feel comfortable sharing even quite basic personal information. But my experience is with those who grew up under communism, I dont know if the same is true for younger people.

Phew!! Bullet dodged!

Of course you're in the right to check her ID. Why would anyone be offended at showing proof of ID before starting a new job, especially if they were going to be in a position of trust such as having a house key? It would make no sense not to confirm who they are.

Also, agreed that a cleaner and a housekeeper in a domestic setting are two different jobs. Someone whose job is to clean the house is a cleaner. If she thinks there is something wrong with being a cleaner, then to me, that would indicate she isn't very engaged in the work and won't do a great job.

Her reactions raise enough red flags to drop this one, OP.

[quote Bargebill19]@SchrodingersImmigrant

Your analogy regarding the plumber in your last paragraph would mean that anyone engaged in building work would in effect be directly employing whoever was onsite. And responsible for their deductions Given they are often a fixed team on site for more than a few days or even weeks. Clearly that isn’t the case! You are paying for a service, they are either employed by the building firms or self employed, but not by you.[/quote]
Theoretically it could actually turn into the person being employer in that case (not in case of staff from building companies). It's really interesting how easy it is to cross the boundaries. I wouldn't say an employee but self employed vs worker can happen.
Whether someone ends up caring is a different matter.
www.gov.uk/employment-status

I agree though that in this case op doesn't need to check right to work so it's fine. I get the photo id request though.

Hi ChilliChoco,
Just to say we have made a small edit to your OP as it wasn't adding anything to the story overall and was potentially disablist.

[quote Bargebill19]**@SchrodingersImmigrant* @ThinWomansBrain*

You are either an employee with an employer who sorts out the deductions or you are self employed.

The op is paying for a service, not employing the cleaner as an employer. Just like paying for the services of a plumber.

If the cleaner isn’t self employed or employed by a company from whicch the op is paying for a cleaning service, then she is working cash in hand, which is illegal and whole other post!

It is up to the op what she does ask for. But it isn’t legally necessary for her to check the right to work. She’s not an employer.[/quote]
she is working cash in hand, which is illegal and whole other post!

@Bargebill19 it's a common misconception that working for cash is illegal. Not so. I could pay a cleaner etc in cash. Nothing wrong with that. If the cleaner didn't declare her earnings, pay tax etc, then they would be breaking the law. not me

If you wanted to see her passport I don't see any reason why she shouldn't equally be allowed to see yours.

YANBU a cleaner is a cleaner, a housekeeper runs the household. I’d have asked for ID as well. You don’t know this woman, the least she can expect is that you want proof of her identity before allowing her free reign in your home.

@notanothertakeaway
Sorry. I should have made it clearer. Cash in hand around here means being paid off the books and not declaring to Hmrc.
My fault for assuming that would be widely known.

Cleaning is just cleaning housekeeping is different when I did a housekeeping job I stripped and made beds put a wash on if requested watered plants etc as a cleaner I came I cleaned I left I would straighten the bed but not routinely made from scratch

My cleaner, Maria, is Portuguese and she has been coming to clean for me for twenty years. She is now a friend and I only ever refer to her as Maria as people in my life have either met her or know of her. It would never have occurred to me to ask to see her passport when she first started.

I've ordered a bottle of Pimms and some Portuguese tartlets for when she comes on Friday.

I always introduced my cleaner as " This is.....she/he helps me with the cleaning"
Which was quite true as I cleaned my house too.
Maybe that's even worse?..