To ask for DD to be excused from this?

[TravellingSpoon]

DD is in secondary school and this week they will be dissecting chicken wings, not a demonstration, each child is supposed to have their own and will do it as a whole class task.

DD is a vegetarian (her choice) and is really not happy about doing it and has asked that I ask for her to be excused from it, but is worried that she will be made to sit in isolation for that lesson which is a fate worse than death.

AIBU to ask for DD to be excused from the lesson?

The restrictions would ALL be based on DDs choices, preferences.

OK, but that's true for all of us, whether we are veggie or not. Lots of meat eaters would choose not to work in an abbatoir for example. Our dietary choices restrict what we eat - nothing more.

@TravellingSpoon

DD is in secondary school and this week they will be dissecting chicken wings, not a demonstration, each child is supposed to have their own and will do it as a whole class task.

DD is a vegetarian (her choice) and is really not happy about doing it and has asked that I ask for her to be excused from it, but is worried that she will be made to sit in isolation for that lesson which is a fate worse than death.

AIBU to ask for DD to be excused from the lesson?

I'd personally take a stand and empower your daughter to do the same. She has proud strong values and good on her, that's an impressive thing. She should go to the teacher and express her unwillingness to participate and see what happens, maybe offer to do whatever alternative assignment they might want to give.

In the ensuing discussion the biology teacher might change her mind or she might successfully end up taking an alternative assignment, or learns the fact that oftentimes standing up for your beliefs can be uncomfortable and not always successful - but it's always worth trying.

It's part of biology, isn't it? Is it ok for her not to learn it? We would be living in a horrible world if there was no progress of science.
But I think if she doesn't want to participate, she should speak to the teacher.

but is worried that she will be made to sit in isolation for that lesson which is a fate worse than death.

@AlexaShutUp

The restrictions would ALL be based on DDs choices, preferences.

OK, but that's true for all of us, whether we are veggie or not. Lots of meat eaters would choose not to work in an abbatoir for example. Our dietary choices restrict what we eat - nothing more.

OK. You win!

I'm not explaining the obvious again.

I opted out of frog dissection when I was at secondary school. I'm not sure I even told my mum, I just told the teacher I didn't want to do it or observe it. He did just send me out to walk around school for the whole lesson, which probably isn't what he was supposed to do 😁

I don't believe it is necessary to cut up dead things to learn about them and my objection is less to seeing/touching the dead thing and more about the fact that that animal was killed so that lesson could take place.

I opted out nearly 25 years ago. I had no interest in becoming an animal surgeon and 99 percent of kids doing it don't either.

I was a vegetarian and felt strongly I wasn't going to support something that kills animals pointlessly so teenagers can poke them with sticks and giggle . I wasn't squeamish and would happily poke any old dead thing I found dead of natural causes at the beach. I don't believe for a second there is any genuine benefit to the average teenager from cutting up stuff that couldn't be gleaned from a book.

It doesn't teach resilience, it teaches cruelty and teaches kids animals are there for our use, which I don't agree with. We know that dangerous people abuse animals as children, why encourage behavior that isn't beneficial to society.

i refused dissection lessons in biology at school back in the 90s. They cant force her

Just because she chooses not to eat mean, doesn't mean that she needs to pretend that animals don't exist.

Do you think you said a clever thing? Or something that even made a tiny bit of sense?

Just asked for her to be excused. Plenty of people will have been excused before.
I can remember doing it back in 1990 (!). A couple of people were excused as they were vegetarians and didn't want to do it. 3 or 4 people felt squeamish, one fainted. They were all sent out to the school library. They were sent off to learn the parts of the eye from a book and had a worksheet to fill in.

@user1473276264

i'm a vegetarian and chose to be excused from dissecting a cow's heart in school. i'm also now a medical student, as dissecting a human body feels very different (totally consensual as these people had donated their bodies by choice). so if she doesn't want to, I think she shouldn't have to!

Yes, this! It’s not like anatomy professors have cadavers killed specially for dissection by med students. It’s not comparable at all.

@donquixotedelamancha

Definitely ask that she be excluded, she won't be the only one.

In all the times I've done this prac I can only ever recall one child not wanting to. I doubt there will be many who opt out.

In my experience kids learn squeemishness. If adults don't make a fuss and deal with things in a factual way, they tend to manage their anxieties very effectively.

Yes, being squeamish is learned behaviour but that doesn't mean it can easily be unlearned. I've got to age 50 being squeamish and I've had cbt, hypnotherapy - lots of things and you know what, I'm still squeamish and have never ever had to dissect an animal in my lifetime!

@MotionActivatedDog

but is worried that she will be made to sit in isolation for that lesson which is a fate worse than death.

I think the chicken would rather have sat in isolation

Not a chance my DD would sit in on something like this. She can learn enough anatomy without seeing a chicken being dissected. It would literally traumatise her.

I'm a bit confused by what you mean when you say she will be made to sit in isolation though? She has to go somewhere 🤷🏻‍♀️

@NeverMetANiceOne

Just because she chooses not to eat mean, doesn't mean that she needs to pretend that animals don't exist.

Can you come back and try to make some sense?

It doesn't teach resilience, it teaches cruelty

I don't think anyone is dissecting the chickens alive.

Absolutely, but it's easier to address at 11-12 than in adulthood. I am a squeamish about loads because I was coddled as a child, which is why I don't want to do the same to my kids.

I'm not explaining the obvious again.

Your main point seems to be that our personal preferences and values will impact on our choices. That is indeed obvious, to the point that I'm not quite sure why it needs to be said at all. My point is merely that this applies to vegetarians and non-vegetarians alike.

I opted out of this stuff at school as I would have fainted definitely. I managed to pass my GCSEs with good grades and never went on to do any science subjects at A Level or otherwise.

I'm a teacher, or was. Forgive me for knowing that many teenagers make decisions without thinking about all the possible future ramifications.

Which is why my first question, and a later explanation, was about jobs

And also why my second explanation was about long term health. I only got the medical help I needed because I was properly informed about the possible negatives of a veggie diet.

If DD has no interest in any of the life sciences and would be happy to work through every day compromises, accepting the inconveniences specifc to being veggie, then she'll be fine.

But if she hasn't thought about things like that then this would be a good time for that discussion.

@donquixotedelamancha

It doesn't teach resilience, it teaches cruelty

I don't think anyone is dissecting the chickens alive.

Absolutely, but it's easier to address at 11-12 than in adulthood. I am a squeamish about loads because I was coddled as a child, which is why I don't want to do the same to my kids.

So anyone who doesn't eat a live chicken isn't supporting animal cruelty?

Watching abusive pornography isn't supporting an abusive industry because it's not happening as you watch it?

They're not just collecting dead chickens who died from old age

That’s up to the parents and kids to decide.

Of course. I and many, many others pointed out she can opt out.

You were saying this prac was unnecessary because it's a small part of the GCSE content. I was replying to that point about why schools should do 'unecessary' but different and interesting things.

My secondary school didn’t even do dissection, how on earth have I got through life without that lesson in ‘resilience’.

Presumably you had lots of other encouragement and challenging experiences. Sadly some kids don't and it can make them into whiney, neurotic adults.

@GreyhoundG1rl

So? You could say the same about the burgers in the school canteen. What does that mean? Veggies just don't eat the burgers, they don't insist on eating in a different, burger free environment. Watching someone else eat a burger is just life 🤷🏻‍♀️

It means that the fact that dead animals are available (to eat, dissect or anything else) doesn't mean a vegetarian should just forget their principles and partake in whatever the purpose of the dead animal is.

Ask for her to be excused. But if she is GCSE age she will need to be supervised and the isolation suite may be the only realistic option for the school if she won’t even be in the classroom. She may ultimately have to choose between staying in the classroom or going to isolation, but she should have the choice.