To think most of MN don’t know what having no money means

[icecolddrinks]

And that admitting to having none is humiliating.

I see it here all the time. Someone has no money. Someone suggests something to make life easier. The person says again they have no money. MN suggest a cheaper version.

On the thread about dress up so many people were saying to tell the school.

I know debt and low incomes aren’t ideal but they aren’t uncommon either so why is it so hard to acknowledge that someone might have 3p in their bank account and no money?

Poverty is a very complex issue. I’ve been on both sides of the spectrum. When I was younger I didn’t have a pot to piss in. Life was hard. I had tax credits and worked but I was at uni with a toddler and it was tough. I was always in to my overdraft. I didn’t even see it as debt, it was part of my available funds ☹️ Credit cards had a few grand on.

No mammy and daddy to help me. Just me and my partner who worked in a petrol station, so was also on NMW.

It was grim.

Thankfully I qualified and stared earning more. He got an apprenticeship and things stated looking up. Fast forward 14 years and I’m in a very different place. I don’t worry about money now and I’m thankful to have been released of that burden.

I certainly don’t think it’s a simple as saying get a better job etc that’s ignorant. Poverty is often a cycle and some people can escape it but luck plays a huge role in my opinion.

Some that have never experienced it will assume it’s as simple as getting a better paid job etc as if it’s that easy to just get a job.

Having said that, I also think there are some people that don’t help themselves and make bad decisions and waste money.

@TwinsandTrifle

"I know debt and low incomes aren’t ideal but they aren’t uncommon either so why is it so hard to acknowledge that someone might have 3p in their bank account and no money?*

For me, two things. Firstly, from having to claim benefits myself and astounded at the amount I was given. We literally lived no differently to when I was in full time work.

The second. I had no money, one month. The clutch went in my car. I had "3p" in the bank that month. What I can't understand is how people only ever have 3p in the bank continually.

So my view, is that I know what you receive, I wasn't special, that's what I received too. I know what average bills are, and if consistently you are left with 3p, then it is not down to lack of initial money, but your own choices on what you've done with it.

The odd month with a surprise large expense can't be helped. The rest of the year? It's down to personal choices. Some months I'd have £300-400 to just spend on whatever, after all bills and food. That's a huge amount. And it wasn't like we lived like misers.

So yes, because of having been in that exact position, and knowing how very easy it was, I question what made me so "lucky" when some people swear they are so hard done by.

Lol, no it's not the same for everyone.

15 years ago I was single, had a cheap mortgage, 3 cats, no children.

Had recently taken a pay cut to change career direction to what would eventually be a better paying job. No insurance because when I got my mortgage and wanted to take out insurance I wasn't eligible (working fixed term contracts linked to gvt funding - secure employment in reality, but not on paper)

I had an accident, dropped to half pay. Looked into benefits - not eligible, earn too much, come back when you drop to SSP.

Dropped to SSP. All saving gone. Mortgage company were amazing, let me drop to interest only. £121 per month. Tried to get a lodger no joy - nice cul de sac in very rough area.

Somewhere along the lines I managed to claim industrial injuries disablement benefit. Iirc about 20 quid a week. Total £83 per week.

Reapplied to benefits - "a single person only needs £45 per week to live on. With SSP and IIDB you earn too much" come back in x weeks when we can consider your mortgage payment.

Came back in x weeks - you're not eligible because you remortged after x date. Erm yes remortgage regularly for best rates. Ironically if I'd been renting I would have got well over 200 paid!

Not eligible for DLA as didn't think I'd be in the same position for at least 12 months. Later got around 20 quid a week until criteria changed and I lost it.

Remember walking over 15 miles round trip to visit an elderly family member because I couldn't afford to put petrol in my car and too ashamed to admit it.

Got my shopping budget down to £15 per week and lost weight - didn't have any to lose.

Could have sold the car but wouldn't have helped for long and needed it to return to work. Couldn't afford to sell the house (no money for costs) and would have been long term financial suicide as renting was far more expensive than my mortgage.

So no, sorry, you don't have a clue what it was like for me and can't speak for me or others who have been in my position.

£83 per week income to pay:-
121 mortgage
60 per month food, cleaning, toiletries
10 per month cat food and litter
5 Petrol
15 per month cat insurance for 3 cats - 1 had expensive recurring condition so no way I could drop this
40 gas and elec
0 clothes
20 water
Car insurance
House and contents insurance
Telephone
= nothing left for emergencies, fun, etc

There were lots of posters on here recently bemoaning poor people for making bad food choices and trotted out the MN favourite "batch cooking"
Not taking into account that even if batch cooking is more economical per portion you need to be able to buy all the ingredients (and "store cupboard " type items if you dont already have them) in one go. (More expensive than buying a bag of chips or pizza) And have the utensils and adequate gas/electric to do so.

You are absolutely right, OP.

Most of us are lucky enough to not understand the unhappiness of constant poverty.

You are on a bloody wind up grin you just wanted to tell everyone you shop at Boden!

If your capabilities are that limited to only understanding "trilling on about Boden" (and not the benefit of the £350 resale value) from what I've written, then it fully explains why you don't get the rest.

You're certainly something dear, and it's not a "wind up"

The problem on here is for everything thread by a truly skint/desperate poster down to their last 3p, who has tried everything, there are as many by
a) people who drip feed in various details that reveal they are in fact not really budgeting that tightly
b) people who are very skint but are given really good advice eg often arent getting all the benefits they are entitled to, and spend the whole thread whinging but ignoring the good advice

I grew up with homemade cardboard insoles in my shoes, so that the holes in the bottom were covered, so for me "no money" is no money at all. People at work, and on mumsnet etc don't understand that generally. "Why didn't you wear another pair?".

I had my school shoes and my daps for pe/home, both were worn through.

Simple pleasures, but the day I went and bought a shoe rack because I needed one I got a bit emotional.

I agree OP, there are many people who claim they have "no money" but are just deluded - for them, that means no savings or not being able to afford some luxury. They don't realise there's those of us who routinely have less than £1 in the bank and are at the end of our overdrafts maxed out credit cards etc.

We went through a really rough patch last year after DH was made redundant. We could just about pay the rent and bills on my wage, but were left with about £40 a month for food and everything else for us and DD. I had a family member that told me they were in the same position, and it was so tough for them as they'd only been able to book 1 "cheap" (all-inclusive cruise) holiday instead of their usual 2. To them, only being able to spend £2000 instead of the usual £8000 a year on holidays was them having no money.

DH finally got another job and although we have nothing in the bank at the end of the month, we're no longer adding to our credit cards or having to skip meals so that DD can eat, so I'd say we're pretty well off now. Being able to afford rent, bills, and 3 meals a day is really all you need - if anyone has any money left over and can pay for anything else after that then they have money in my eyes, and are a CF to claim they don't.

I think this comment comes mostly from other posters having no experience with regards to poverty, it’s not as simple as telling people to skimp on things, when they are already doing that anyway.
When I grew up I lived in social housing and came from a single parent family (the other parent didn’t contribute ever financially) there was never spare money, I went without a lot, including shoes and clothes that were always too small. Food was basic and wasn’t hugely nutritionally and we rarely had fruit. I am so glad now that those who are struggling at least have the option of food banks. For many there is simply no way to cut back.

Half the time they aren’t posting about being skint, though.

It might be they are worried about their health but no ambulance and they don’t drive. ‘Get a taxi.’

Or it might be that their partner is WFH and everyone has to be quiet and they are told to get garden rooms or an office or even a new desk.

Or even just the tired old teacher gifts and so on.

Someone doesn’t have to start a thread specifically about being skint.

@icecolddrinks

most of their teachers don’t know

In which case that PP money is being badly spent.

Teachers absolutely should know who is PP in their class.

Teachers will know who is FSM in their class - they should know who the PP kids are that they are teaching. That is true. And I've put it on a seating plan only once in every 5 or so years, when Ofsted are in, because Ofsted will need to know who the PP kids are and will want to check that schools are 'closing the gap'.

Ive not heard of marking PP students first.

Teachers and schools should know who PP kids are so that they can ensure that those children aren't penalised and receive the extra funding they are entitled to. But it would be done sensitively so that the children in the class wouldn't be aware. For example, we've given out free revision guides to PP kids and in some classes we've made them free to all children, and in some cases collected money from some parents and then handed them all out together. For trips, the child wouldn't be aware who has paid for the trip, unless the parents told them. We might get a TA to work with the class (and the TA would know who to target support to, but would be there to support the whole class). There might be small intervention groups, but it's not just PP who get that sort of support, and the kids wouldn't know the reason a child is withdrawn for intervention. It's not like "9.30am, FSM maths intervention, 10.30am SEN intervention, 11.30am level 3 intervention". Pupils have targeted intervention for many reasons, not just FSM.

@TwinsandTrifle sorry but your actually missing The point. You stated you spent £500 in boden and sold it for £350. As an accountant you should know that firstly you needed the £500 to invest and you still made a loss of £150. If someone is skint they cant afford to buy and resell. And if they are skint they cant afford to buy at boden and will probably be buying second hand or from primark Which will have little to no resale value. Welcome to the real world.

@TheLovelinessOfDemons and your DH will be expected to put another 10 years in.

It's a trap and you don't escape, eventually you retire but you are still held back.

To go big picture,
Poverty has to be a trap, if you pay high enough wages then the top tier don't make their massive profits.
Anyone that believes it's a fair system (meritocracy) is deluded.
Keeping people poor is part of the system.

@icecolddrinks to get to Primark I'd need to get the bus. If it's not available in Sainsbury's or I don't have the money for it, she's not getting it.

I mentioned to my aunt a few years ago that I was buying the DC Christmas jumpers. She said I was a sucker for seasonal promotions. I said they were for Christmas jumper day. She said use jumpers they have and buy Christmas brooches.

1. They didn't have jumpers.
2. I'd have to buy jumpers and brooches so that would cost 50% more.
3. These would be their jumpers for the entire year.
4. I bought a size bigger so I'd get 2 years out of them.

However, we were really lucky in that my parents would never see us on the street, and were incredibly kind and covered DH's travel costs when his DM was dying and he wanted to go see her before she passed.

So although technically we had no money, we still had that back-up plan where my DPs would house us if it got the point of eviction. I know not everyone has that luxury.

Do you know why I had £400 left over each month? My perfectly good TV was 8 yrs old. My tumble dryer (which I've still got!) was £50 from the freeads. DS had gorgeous clothes, I got a bit obsessed with everything from Boden. But it all got resold on eBay. £500 worth, he'd wear for a year, and I'd sell for £350! I bought secondhand. I didn't buy a car with repayments I couldn't afford when I had a car that worked. Would I have liked a better one, god yes. Did I go out and get one then moan how I had no more benefits to spend? Jesus wept.

It's a very liveable amount. If its not, then it's down to that individual.

Your privilege is showing.

You had a TV and a tumble drier as well as the power supply to operate them. You had Internet access, a device that could access the Internet, and an eBay account so presumably also PayPal and/or a bank account. You had a car so had driving lessons at some point and could afford the costs associated with running it. You're obviously educated and have life skills.

There are people who don't have white goods or laundry facilities, my local food bank frequently asks for food that can be prepared using only a kettle or a microwave. There are people who don't have a reliable electricity supply because key meters (common in rented accommodation and for people who don't have a bank account or an account with direct debit facilities) need to be topped up to keep the power on. There are people who can't afford driving lessons so have no car or have had driving lessons but can't afford the tax/insurance/fuel. There are people who can't shop online because they don't have Internet access or a debit card. There are people who can't do online food shopping because they don't have Internet or a debit card or can't afford the minimum spend (c.£40) plus delivery fee or they haven't got a reliable fridge/freezer to store it in anyway so there only viable option is more expensive corner/convenience shops. There are people with such chaotic lives that the chaos itself is a hinderence and is a barrier to improving their situation.

Two things:

1. It costs money to be poor.

1. It's called the poverty trap for a reason.

[quote Soberanne]@TwinsandTrifle i am so glad your experience of being on benefits was a good one and that you are now an accountant. That in itself is a success story but surely you must appreciate that this is not the case for everyone. Benefits for most are hard to come buy, come with some real stringent rules and sanctions, never mind the many who feel ashamed (which they shouldnt) and what that does that do to their mental health. Insinuating that because people who are skint They are bad with money really isnt constructive or a sign that you have any concept of living in the real world.[/quote]
T and T just want to let everyone know that most people on benefits/on a low wage, simply cannot budget properly and fritter money away willy nilly. Where I live the rent example would be laughable. There is a cap and a lot of UC would be used to pay the extra if private renting. Having things on HP? Maybe, just maybe they were bought before things got tough.
It makes me so angry that people genuinely believe people in financial dire straits all brought it on themselves.

I grew up with homemade cardboard insoles in my shoes, so that the holes in the bottom were covered, so for me "no money" is no money at all. People at work, and on mumsnet etc don't understand that generally. "Why didn't you wear another pair?".

Me too. Also the only new clothes I got bought was school uniform, and preferably second hand even for that. Everything else was hand-me-downs. I had to borrow clothes for my first job interview. Thankfully I knew a rich southerner to borrow them off then (and they kindly let me); it was the one and only time in my life that that applied. It was so entertaining to have the issue of my clothes brought up while I was paying to work in training recently.

Selina Todd's work is well worth a read.

I didn’t mean it was a nationwide thing @Kolo sorry - was thinking of different schools I know. They are all different which does mean mn is hard sometimes as you get posters insisting that this is how it’s spent and don’t realise every school is different!

As a general point though I do find that many schools use FSM as a sign of social deprivation which of course it is in a general sense but on an individual level I understand people not wanting their child labelled.

It’s always twins

@TwinsandTrifle You don't seem to understand that the majority of us don't have £500 spare to begin with to buy Boden clothes. Whoop de doo for you that you were able to sell it and only lost £150 - that £150 is more than our entire household's clothes budget for the year.

This is what I mean about people being deluded. If you have £500 to spend on clothes (for one child!!) then you're raking it in as far as I'm concerned.

You got a bit obsessed with Boden

Right ....

I have friends who describe themselves as skint...yet have £20k plus in savings and haven't even entered their overdraft in their current account.

@OhWhyNot

You got a bit obsessed with Boden

Right ....

You lack the capabilities to understaaaaaaaand

My personal circumstances have recently changed beyond my control. My household income reduced overnight by 90%. I was very well placed, now I am not. The drop was sudden and astonishing, and I am now in the place my parents were when I was a child of feeding the kids rather than myself so the impact to them is shielded a bit. I am working very hard to improve our situtaion, although it will never be what it was, in about a year I hope to be in a better place. School is meant to be the great leveller though isn't it but I have had to avoid Collection Mum all week becuase if I chip in that fiver for the Teacher I cannot afford the petrol I need to go to work. But that will also mean that DD's name wont go in the teacher's card.