To think most of MN don’t know what having no money means

[icecolddrinks]

And that admitting to having none is humiliating.

I see it here all the time. Someone has no money. Someone suggests something to make life easier. The person says again they have no money. MN suggest a cheaper version.

On the thread about dress up so many people were saying to tell the school.

I know debt and low incomes aren’t ideal but they aren’t uncommon either so why is it so hard to acknowledge that someone might have 3p in their bank account and no money?

@TwinsandTrifle So, do you understand what being broke means or not?

Twins point has been somewhat lost in the to & fro.

There are SOME people in the uk, a tiny minority, who are living in real, hand to mouth abject poverty. Often where its genuinely no fault of their own & typically for a relatively temporary period eg on redundancy or illness or a sanction to benefits.

but there are also some people in the uk, another tiny minority (!) who are poor at budgeting/cutting cloth, and don't always avail themselves of the help available. Pretending this category doesn't exist does the first bunch no favours.

and the reality is the vast majority of the UK either earn enough or obtain enough from benefits to manage, eg affording food/housing/utilities for their families and a few treats. Many of these people are relatively poor, in that the UK has some very wealthy people and lots of people will feel hard done by that they cannot afford the holidays, cars, treats, clothes etc afforded by the better off. But fundamentally real dire absolute poverty is statistically rare in the UK, and even more rare to be stuck in it very long term.

So T and T you know more about the benefit system that those of us who work in it, or day in, day out, now - in July 2021, with people suffering from it, yes?

There is a lot of good fortune that goes with being well off that ironically results in some of the wealthiest people receiving stuff for free or being offered well paid jobs due to the circles they mix in. Their children also benefit just from.being the offspring of people with influence, they get advantages in life that others have to work alot harder for so work experience in decent, interesting places that will lead to good incomes for example.

I am on a local WhatsApp group full of pretty well off people so the school dress up days, they just ask on this group and someone always has something to lend or give away. The school fairs get donations for raffle prizes that are pretty impressive so quite a bit of money is raised for the primary schools. This is great of course as they are state schools but even the end of school gift for the teacher has raised so much they are thinking of giving some towards the school for better equipment. Many people commented they wanted to give extra this year as they have not had to pay for school trips.

I know people who get huge expensive hampers from workplace and clients at Christmas so there is wine and champagne sitting around to offer when you go around again not paid for by themselves. When you think how some struggle to get a Christmas meal together at all.

I know this feeling. It's horrible.

I work 65-70 hours a week and we just keep our heads above water.

We have 5 kids, 4 of them are step kids whose sperm donor (can't call him a father as he refused contact or to pay maintenance) doesn't pay a penny.

There's no way we can afford gifts for teachers etc....

Her point has been lost because it was a loaf of rubbish.

Yes, in days of yore you could have many children and a reasonable income.

Not now. It’s all feckless and deserving poor. Daft. As an aside I am cringing at the attempts to goad

I will never forget a woman on MN who sneered on a Christmas thread that she would never, ever, ever, not in a million years take on debt to provide for Xmas.

Her and her husband were both barristers with a Mews house... potentially NOT buying the 3-bird roast from Aldi and filling stockings from World of Quid.

@AlphabetAerobics

I think you're all being a bit hard on Twins. She pulled herself up by nothing but her Boden bootstraps, appliances which NEVER broke beyond repair (presumably Bosch washing machine rather than £180 swan from the catalogue...) and using her model looks to land a forensic accountant type.

I agree. I feel dreadfully ashamed now

@AlphabetAerobics

I will never forget a woman on MN who sneered on a Christmas thread that she would never, ever, ever, not in a million years take on debt to provide for Xmas.

Her and her husband were both barristers with a Mews house... potentially NOT buying the 3-bird roast from Aldi and filling stockings from World of Quid.

Yes I think some people fail to grasp that many people get into debt to buy really basic stuff or just to be able to get even cheap gifts for their kids

At the end of the day it all boils down to the Micawber principle.

Income £20.00, expenditure £19,19s and 6d, result happiness; e,pedicure £20 and 6d, result misery.

I think the real issues arise when the unexpected happens. Unexpected baby, unexpected marriage break down, illness or job loss, etc.

I lived with a very low income, regularly had no money because my ex thought his tobacco and real ale was an essential and my gluten free food and son's dairy free foods were not.

I never ever look down on anyone who says they have no money and have discretely provided many things to people who are struggling financially, even if I don't really know them. I will never forget how hard it was. If you've got no money in your account, you've got no money!

I should add that the soul destroying misery of always spending to within a pound of a very small income must be dreadful. It can be seen in the faces of people who hop on buses when they go through some of the big London estates - it's covered up in a woman's 20s by hair and make-up and often a bit of style (that gets criticised on here no end) but fast forward 20 years and the harshness is drawn into their expression.

I've been so skint that I needed to steal a fiver from my landlords penny jar to get milk and noodles for the week. I was living in his basement and all my clothes got ruined when a pipe burst.
That was the scariest time of my life. I promised myself I would never, ever return to that. I save like a demon now that I'm in a better position.
Poverty is fucking SCARY AND MISERABLE.

Or being behind someone in a supermarket queue who desperately rifles through their basket looking to put something back and seeing the relief when you say - stop it, here you go when sometimes actually you do it because you need to move at speed and giving them a few quid keeps the queue moving. But it must be he'll to be in that position.

@wedswench theme parks are a huge luxury, for the majority of families. Ditto cinema. Either bus fares have gone down loads, or you could walk to the park.

And please send a link for the £3 sky package, I never realised you could get it that cheap.

People saying sick of turning invitations down - that goes for a large proportion of parents - we have no family nearby so never had free childcare. Smoking should just stop. I say that as an ex smoker. It can be done.

People would have more sympathy if there weren’t these constant justifications for how money is wasted. Bet the kids all have phones etc. We were super poor growing up (regularly having to put things back when we didn’t have enough. Our roast dinner was a rasher of streaky bacon as the meat. We didn’t have Sky, wine, fags, holidays, anything. It isn’t fair that there is such a gap between super wealth and those not, but citing not being able to go to theme parks or the cinema is not a sign of poverty.

"I'm poor because I have massive debts" means you've chosen to borrow beyond your means, and need debt management.

No, it means I'm poor and dont have the disposable income to throw at bills or unexpected expenses.

I am a single parent on not much more than NMW who shares custody of my DD with her dad 50/50 (so no maintenence etc). Up until last year when we moved into a HA flat after 5 years on the council list (5 years of refreshing the property list at 00.01am every Thursday when the new bidding week started to bid on anything that we were eligible for) we lived in a private rental because I don't earn enough to be able to afford a mortgage alone never mind save the deposit needed but I could barely afford it as it was in a high CT area, water rates were exorbitant, the landlord had an old electrical system with two separate supplies (which was a legacy system they didn't want to update as it would cost thousands) that meant only one or two suppliers had a tariff to suit so I couldn't shop around for better deals etc but it was the only place that was available, suitable and just within my budget so I had to take it. I mostly managed to afford everything on my wage but we literally didn't have a spare penny and very occasionally I would have to put food shops on a credit card because the money just wouldn't stretch to the end of the month.

When I got my HA property it cost me just over £2000 upfront to move. In the long run it saved money as my rent/bills reduced but in order to do so it cost me money I didn't have. I bid on a property on the Thursday; got a call to offer a viewing the following Friday; viewed the property, agreed to rent it and was told I had to pay a month's rent (£500) on Monday as a deposit when I would be given the contract/keys and the tenancy was officially mine. If I didn't pay the rent by Monday the tenancy would go to someone else as they couldn't hold the property. Then, my next 4 months rent would be increased by 25% to cover the deposit (basically rather than paying deposit and one month's rent upfront they asked for the deposit up front and then split the first month's rent over a few months) so even though my new rent was £150 cheaper, I was only £25 better off for the first 5 months.

In addition, I had to give my current landlord notice of 1 month (£650) and as this all happened in the space of a week I was still on the hook for another months rent (fortunately this happened at the end of the month so my following month was the final one - if it had been a week or two later then I'd have had to pay the extra weeks) so I had to pay double rent for a month.

Then I had to pay to get the flat habitable - the previous tenant had spraypainted all over the walls; there were massive holes in the walls from where they had ripped out fixtures/shelves etc, all the seals in the kitchen and bathroom were crumbling/needed replacing and everything was just grotty, worn and in need of a good clean. Since I was paying rent to the old place I was lucky that I could do the work before I had to move all my stuff over but just to get it clean and painted cost about £300. Some of it was cosmetic so not life and death essential but would you want to live somewhere where your living room has "FUCK YOU CUNTS" painted in 3ft high neon pink spray paint?

Once it was habitable I had to actually get my stuff packed and moved - I don't have a car and while family were happy to help move boxes etc I needed to get packing stuff (I managed to get lots of free boxes at work but still needed to buy things like tape/rope/bubblewrap) and hire a man with a van for a day for the bigger furniture (beds/sofa etc) which cost me about £150-200.

Then I had to purchase all the white goods and other furniture - the private let was partly furnished and all white goods were integrated... the HA flat had a kitchen with a sink and a few cupboards so I had to buy a fridge/cooker/washing machine/microwave as we could not manage without them (washing machine I might have managed without at a push but there are no launderettes nearby and I would have had to take stuff to my parents, 20 mins away by bus, to do it). That cost me £600 as I got them new from a online discount place as I'd rather pay slightly more for new products that come with manufacturer and retail warranty, delivery and installation included than take my chance with some years old item of questionable provenance that someone was flogging for £50 on FB marketplace, (that would then have cost me an extra £50 get someone to collect/deliver it)

Then there were all the other furniture bits I needed eg clothes storage - at the private let all the bedrooms had built in cupboards so when we moved I needed to buy a wardrobe/drawers and even just buying a cheap fabric wardrobe and set of plastic drawers each for DD and I from B&M set me back £100 (still cheaper than FB marketplace/our local charity shops). Again not essential but I didn't want my DD to have to live out of boxes and suitcases for months on end because I couldn't afford to buy her a damn wardrobe.

By which time it was March 2020 and the pandemic hit. Overtime evaporated, my wages nosedived and my, originally manageable on my normal salary, debt became massive as I had no savings and had just had to put my entire move onto credit cards and my finances spiralled as I had to prioritise what bills were essential and what could afford to wait ... all the while late fees/interest were building up. Now I'm back to some sort of stability but, 18 months later my £2k moving costs are still owing because I had to prioritise food and rent than paying more than my minimum payment on my credit card.

I wish I had the privilege to just stop being poor and "live within my means", but even by trying to do so I've ended up in more debt.

@TwinsandTrifle is actually making me feel physically sick with her lack of empathy. In my work I've referred men in tears to food banks. Literally starving. I've come across children who've never even been to the cinema, let alone on holiday. People who don't have enough money to print off more than one CV so we sneak through ten copies for them.

My daughter spent part of last year volunteering at a food bank. She has more compassion in her little finger than you do. You make me sick.

And don't even get me started on the woman who had her benefits sanctioned because she attended her sister's funeral. I will never forget her tears of grief and rage and desperation.

and the reality is the vast majority of the UK either earn enough or obtain enough from benefits to manage, eg affording food/housing/utilities for their families and a few treats

The thing is that "managing" is exhausting. "Managing" 24/7 with no end in sight is soul destroying.

Yes I have secure housing and a job that just pays for everything but I hate that for that to happen, I have to constantly be thinking about money and budgets etc. Its stressful and never ending.

I would love to be spontaneous and treat DD to a random day out at the cinema and not have to worry about the cost when she also wants popcorn but I can't because I have to carefully budget for everything. Even on treats I have to look at where I can cut costs - I remember once taking DD to a cheap event and, knowing that food and drink inside would be expensive I packed a picnic to save money ... when we got to the venue there was a limit to the size of drinks bottles (I think it was something like 500ml limit) which I hadn't realised and so my 2l bottle of water was confiscated. As we planned to be there all day it was out of the question to not drink all day but I ended up having to pay £6 for two 500ml bottles of water which then ate into the budget I had allowed for the day and so DD couldn't do as many activities as she wanted as I couldn't afford them. If I had known about the bottle restrictions I could have bought two 500ml bottles of water for £1 at the corner shop on the way and DD could have done more activities. For many people £6 would be inconvenient but it wouldn't change the entire day out, whereas for some that "treat" they have managed to budget for has just cost them even more money

@Lepetitpiggy

Just ugh at some of the people on this thread. No wonder we have this Government, they've done a brilliant job at making sure the poorest are blamed for their own poverty.

Yes. This, exactly. It started in the 1980's with the stigmatisation of 'single Mums' (spoiler: I'm one now, not because I 'fecklessly got pg aged 15 for a council flat' (Govt narrative not my opinion), but because my H walked out as he finds the care of our 2 kids with ASD 'too stressful) But look at Cecil Parkinson, Boris etc & it's clear who is 'to blame' here

The Covid Pandemic has been an absolute gift to the 'divide & rule' technique used by those at the top to keep us pecking away at each other whilst they pull the rug from under us all. Everyone has had a difficult year, everyone is tired, stressed, feeling insecure. Yes, some massively more than others but we are all desperately protecting what we've got left now. And that means the caged rats turn on each other whilst the Technicians look on. At the end of the day they turn the lights off and go home. It is hard to feel positive. I try to pay attention to kindness, and to practice random acts myself. I had to move recently (landlord needed property back) & my old TV doesn't get the news any more. It's better, I think. I listen to the radio now.

But yes, Govt loves the Victorian notion of the 'undeserving poor'.

@52andblue Totally agree with you. It's like the myth of the American Dream - you're only in poverty because you're lazy and you don't work hard enough.

[quote Bunnyfuller]@wedswench theme parks are a huge luxury, for the majority of families. Ditto cinema. Either bus fares have gone down loads, or you could walk to the park.

And please send a link for the £3 sky package, I never realised you could get it that cheap.

People saying sick of turning invitations down - that goes for a large proportion of parents - we have no family nearby so never had free childcare. Smoking should just stop. I say that as an ex smoker. It can be done.

People would have more sympathy if there weren’t these constant justifications for how money is wasted. Bet the kids all have phones etc. We were super poor growing up (regularly having to put things back when we didn’t have enough. Our roast dinner was a rasher of streaky bacon as the meat. We didn’t have Sky, wine, fags, holidays, anything. It isn’t fair that there is such a gap between super wealth and those not, but citing not being able to go to theme parks or the cinema is not a sign of poverty.[/quote]
We have a NOW half price for 6 months deal. When that ends decisions will be made and I expect I'll walk the 1.5 hours to my weekly appointment rather than get the bus so we can keep the movies and series that we chuck on daily and enjoy together.

My point is - you're not allowed to say you have no money unless you are quite literally living on bread and water. Anything beyond that and you're not properly poor

Good posts melj
It grinds you down.