To ask if you know where “taking the knees” comes from?

[NewMum0305]

Stemming from the other thread asking what the problem is with taking the knee and some of the responses (a minority) describing it as a “divisive” act and one post saying it caused them to have a “visceral” reaction, I just wondered how many people knew where the act had come from? Particularly those people who are opposed to it.

YABU - I know where “taking the knee” originated from

YANBU - I don’t know where “taking the knee” originated from

@Weebleweeble

Or are we pretending that there is no racism in the UK now?

Not at all - racism is throughout our UK society - but the police aren't shooting down black people in the streets.
Which is what BLM seems to be about to me.
I think we should do things differently in the UK, not take on US stuff.

Racism is indeed prevalent in the UK, and by taking a knee, UK football players hope to bring attention to that fact, and to help bring it to an end.

If that's too difficult for you to support I guess that's up to you.

I wasn’t suggesting that it was supposed to be inspiring at all - just pointing out that it wasn’t intended as a gesture of subservience (as some people seem to be wilfully misinterpreting it to be), but rather, one of respectful protest.

That was at @BiBabbles, sorry

While it’s true that Colin Kaepernick was the first in recent times to take the knee (certainly with any kind of publicity) it has it origins deeper in history. Martin Luther King took the knee at marches in the 60s.

Interestingly, Colin Kaepernick originally intended to remain seated during the national anthem. A former army veteran suggested that he kneel instead, in order to avoid being labelled disrespectful. People kneel to be knighted, to pray, and soldiers kneel at the graves of their comrades. He thought kneeling would stop people being critical, unfortunately he was wrong in the case of some people.

@SallySycamore

If taking a knee shows subservience then women must be the dominant sex in the West as men traditionally propose on one knee.

Well, in that moment yes — isn't that the point? They're offering their fealty to that woman in the same way a knight would to their liege.

Not really - being subservient for the moment of proposal only isn’t being subservient.

It means to submit to them giving up your needs. A kneeled proposal shows respect to the person you are asking to marry and to formalise the partnership.

Fealty is loyalty not subservience

I thought it came from MLK.

I do think it’s darkly ironic that so many were opposed to taking the knee because they believe racism in football was over yet the events post match proved the opposite

It was refusing to stand for the pledge of allegiance as a defiant act against racism. Kind of a 'I won't stand to respect a flag that doesn't respect me' moment.

Wasn't it?

To me it is about national leadership. When a nations leaders are trying their best to turn around the slow tanker that is racism there is no need to kneel. When leadership condones racism, either purposefully or negligently, then kneeling is acceptable and right.

I didn't say you did NewMum0305. You asked if knowing where it came from makes any difference. I answered: I never thought it had anything to do with subservience and I find it less inspiring than what others have connected it to. I've never had much feelings on kneeling in the first place. I'm all for multiple tactics on systemic issues, even those that are of little interest to me.

If Kapernick and Reid feel it was effective or a better way, great, but the story sounds like even the veteran involved knew it was a pointless compromise, but the 'white guy to boot' just had to tell Kapernick how he felt about the flag and the whole 'I want you to want to stand' thing -- that rings of a lot of Evangelical Americans I grew up with where we're meant to want to give ourselves to their worldview. To be joyfully subservient and loyal to the powers above us. As I said, I find it an uninspiring story and I don't see how it would make those who see it as divisive or subservient see it as any less those things.

I think what's been done with it since, the connections many others have made to the sporting traditions of kneeling for the injured, the civil rights movements where marching and kneeling in the face of abuse, the Abolitionist Medallion, among many others, matter far more than the origins anyways. Origins rarely matter as much as what people do with something. It'll be interesting to see where it'll taken from here after recent events.

It means to submit to them giving up your needs. A kneeled proposal shows respect to the person you are asking to marry and to formalise the partnership.

Fealty is loyalty not subservience

But the liege/knight has the implicit power difference — that's what I think it's copying personally. Or kneeling in front of your mother or father for their blessing.

I honestly don't link kneeling to respect — apart from recently in this sporting/protest context. To me the most obvious signs of respect would be standing, and, situation dependent, bowing your head.

Thing is, it doesn't matter what black people do to protest. People will find a way to either criticise it, or minimise it, or use whataboutery in some way to distract, or insist it's not relevant, or link it to something vaguely related that they disapprove of.

I could be wrong but wasnt it because the police officer in US kneaded on guys neck and killed him? xx

@WorkHardPlayHard1

I could be wrong but wasnt it because the police officer in US kneaded on guys neck and killed him? xx

It was not but this seems to be a common misconception.

Although it did make it more poignant.