To ask if you know where “taking the knees” comes from?

[NewMum0305]

Stemming from the other thread asking what the problem is with taking the knee and some of the responses (a minority) describing it as a “divisive” act and one post saying it caused them to have a “visceral” reaction, I just wondered how many people knew where the act had come from? Particularly those people who are opposed to it.

YABU - I know where “taking the knee” originated from

YANBU - I don’t know where “taking the knee” originated from

I would say so. Once you know the context, you can interpret it differently. So at a sports event I know what it's representing (it maybe isn't the symbol I'd choose if designing it from scratch, but there's only so many things you can do, so some will have to double up).

If I see a person do a thumbs up sign while scuba diving I interpret it completely differently from on land.

If I see a person do a thumbs up sign while scuba diving I interpret it completely differently from on land.

Brilliant point which I think sums up how I feel about it. If you 'come to it out of the blue' it takes a bit of getting used to to understand exactly what it means. If I showed (say) a 4 year old or a 85 year old who has not followed sport or politics for a while a photo of a sports team taking the knee I am certain they would not only not know what it meant, but also not be able to guess.

However, if you do know exactly what it means and where it comes from, it seems odd to dislike it.

The main thing for me is what it means to those who are actually taking the knee. They’re kneeling.

Everyone else can overlay whatever nonsense they like about BLM but that’s not what it means to the footballers who did.

And that’s the point here.

I associate it with subservience, such as kneeling in church where you're subservient to God or, in a historical context where you'd have to kneel in front of a nobleman or the Lord of the Manor or The King.

Russian prisoners used to (may still do) have stars tattooed on their knees as a sign that 'I bow to no man'.

I'm 51 so perhaps it's an age thing.

Perhaps this is why people are having a visceral reaction to it, because, historically, it's a sign of subservience.

But you can know ad understand where this comes from and still feel it subservient. Although I'm surprised to hear many people don't know the more recent background as it has been so widely publicised.

I've known the Colin Kaepernick story since it began, as I read some US news, I'm also aware it has been linked to MLK, but that wasn't behind CK originally choosing to do this.

I would say I'm actively anti-racist, I'm Jewish, my husband is Black, we completely support the goal. However, still don't like it as a gesture. I do believe kneeling is a subservient act, it historically has been and that isn't how I believe racism should be confronted. Think it was James Baldwin who said Freedom must be taken and taking the knee is too much of the middle ground.

In this house we're still fans of the raised fist as our large 1968 poster can testify although that does have it's own negative connotations...

@leathermouse

Actually, there is a great deal of history surrounding taking a knee, that goes way beyond Colin Kaepernick's recent revival. Martin Luther King was taking a knee in 1965.

This. It isn't new.

Subservience is to Bend The Knee (acknowledge someone as your sovereign/ruler/liege lord).

To not stand for your flag/national anthem and instead to Take A Knee is to adopt a respectful pose while refusing to stand at attention for a country that allows the levels of institutional racism and violence,

There were similar protests in the 60s and 70s about refusing to say the Pledge Of Allegiance in American high schools and colleges.

We have a different history to America and there are many things that we don't identify with because of our history and background. We can't just be lumped in with Americans and their culture and social practices.

I'm sure there are other ways of showing solidarity against racism if you don't feel it's appropriate to kneel.

An American doing it doesn’t make it an exclusively American thing. I assure you that the issues Colin Kaepernick was taking the knee over aren’t exclusive to America and it’s history…

Again, people can say it’s subservient etc but to put that in the same sentence as claiming to support the protest - it’s insensitive and a bit unsupportive to be honest. Which then makes it seem disingenuous to claim you support their message.

Ultimately footballers have chosen to show their feelings in this way.

Ultimately it is not offensive.

It does what a protest should do. Gets people talking about the problem that is racism. That is the issue that needs engaging with and anything else is just a distraction.

People find it uncomfortable because they know racism is shit and they’ve not done enough to stand up to it.

@DrDetriment

I think the issue is that some people feel that taking the knee has come to symbolise support for the BLM movement and not as a simple anti racist stance. Some feel that BLM has a political agenda and set of beliefs that they don't agree with (e.g. defund the police) so it is against their beliefs to take the knee, which is a stance I would have to respect. It isn't as simple as if you don't take the knee you are a racist.

This.

Perhaps not, but I personally don't know anything about American sport, sportspeople etc. so why assume everyone else does?

We're not mini Americans in this country, just because we sort of share a language doesn't mean that we're the same. We have more in common with the French.

I've never heard of the fellow you refer to, I had to Google him.

I think the issue is that some people feel that taking the knee has come to symbolise support for the BLM movement and not as a simple anti racist stance. Some feel that BLM has a political agenda and set of beliefs that they don't agree with (e.g. defund the police) so it is against their beliefs to take the knee, which is a stance I would have to respect. It isn't as simple as if you don't take the knee you are a racist

I bet my bottom dollar that 99.9% of these people don’t even know what the political movement BLM stands for.

Also, having fully read the other thread now, there's several mentions that this combines protesting racism with showing respect for your country/armed forces/religion.

Why do we have to protest racism in a way that is respectful? Racism is by nature completely disrespectful.

daisycottage

Perhaps not, but I personally don't know anything about American sport, sportspeople etc. so why assume everyone else does?… I've never heard of the fellow you refer to, I had to Google him.

It made international news at the time - it’s not an obscure incident buried in American local news 🤨 I don’t think we should post to suit the lowest common denominator on here necessarily…

I don’t follow American sport but I know who Colin Kaepernick is because his actions were global news.

I am fascinated that people can have such strong opinions about an action / movement they have made zero effort to educate themselves about

Is it not from game of thrones?

No @Neondisco, it’s not. Please see my earlier posts.

Colin Kapernick. And the whole point was not standing during the national anthem. It is consciously not affording the symbols of America respect because America does not respect black people.

At least that's how I see it, but what do I know?

PS: Apologies for mis-spelling his name.

@NewMum0305

The problem is that any action that needs a detailed explanation because it's from a different culture is tricky, in the U.K. kneeling is subservient. Kneeling in direct response to an international event (George floyd) had context, whereas its continued use in the U.K. without agreed context means people will criticise. It is American though and many will automatically discount it on that grounds

A sports star decided not to stand during the national anthem at games to protest racial injustice. A veteran advised him kneeling was a more respectful way to do this.

Now people all over the world take the knee to protest and shine a light on racial injustice.

Is it really that complicated?

@NewMum0305

No *@Neondisco*, it’s not. Please see my earlier posts.

I was taking the piss. Jesus no on here has a sense of humour.