To ask if you know where “taking the knees” comes from?

[NewMum0305]

Stemming from the other thread asking what the problem is with taking the knee and some of the responses (a minority) describing it as a “divisive” act and one post saying it caused them to have a “visceral” reaction, I just wondered how many people knew where the act had come from? Particularly those people who are opposed to it.

YABU - I know where “taking the knee” originated from

YANBU - I don’t know where “taking the knee” originated from

I know where it originated, at least the Colin Kaeparnick action, I didnt know it went back to Martin Luther King if that is true

I didn't know that people thought it came from the George Floyd death.

Taking a knee during the national anthem in an American Football game, makes sense as a protest.

Doing it in other contexts is a sign of solidarity and support. It makes sense everywhere if you know the history (which sadly many don't and just say it's "American" and doesn't make sense in England).

Where I grew up, at school-level sports, it was something that players did in a match to stop play because they were injured or something; the coaches would call to them 'take a knee' if they thought they needed to be seen by the coach or first aider or whatever.

I guess it stemmed from that somehow but I don't know the whole history of how it became an anti-racism movement.

@leathermouse

Actually, there is a great deal of history surrounding taking a knee, that goes way beyond Colin Kaepernick's recent revival. Martin Luther King was taking a knee in 1965.

In prayer. Kneeling has been commonplace whilst praying for centuries.

That’s two knees though.

Martin Luther King taking a knee was indeed in prayer, but all of their efforts were to reach a peaceful and meaningful recognition of abuse of Black people in America and demanding progress. Didn't protesters in Selma take a knee in prayer?

Also, there is an argument to state that the act of taking a knee has a long history, dating back to slavery, it has changed and matured, depending in the country where it's taking place and who takes it. Southgate stated that England team is taking a knee to ‘Interact with the public on matters such as equality, inclusivity and racial injustice’.

Martin Luther King Jnr “took a knee” in 1965 in Selma Alabama.
Marches there were taking place to win voting rights for African Americans in the South. State Troopers were using violence to break up these marches.

This seems kind of pointless. I suspect that many people who are voting to say that they do know in fact do not! If you don't know something you sometimes don't know that you don't know it!

No I didn't know and not sure that matters really. It's something that some of our sports people do to bring attention to the cancer that is racism, and that's good enough for me.

Martin Luther King Jr led a group of civil rights activists to take a knee in prayer after being arrested while campaigning for voting rights in 1965

time.com/4955717/trump-protests-mlk-martin-luther-king-kneeling/

@Bryonyshcmyony It matters because those opposed to it are saying it’s a symbol of subservience.

I think that its origins help push back against that.

Unless someone invents and entirely new symbolic act which hasn't been used before, then there will be room for interpretation and division. Just because you know 'a' history of kneeling in this situation, doesn't mean that the people who have different experiences and interpretations are wrong.

Like face masks. If you get PTSD because they remind you of masked robbers that held you at knife point, no amount of someone else extolling their benefits is going to help.

I support those who choose to take the knee. I would take the knee if asked to by someone I was with. I wear a face mask. I don't believe all those who don't comply with poppies, kneeling, face masks etc are intrinsically bigoted.

[quote NewMum0305]@Bryonyshcmyony It matters because those opposed to it are saying it’s a symbol of subservience.

I think that its origins help push back against that.[/quote]
You are only referring to the origins of this current movement, not the history of kneeling.
Kneeling on one of both knees has a huge, multifaceted history.

Kneeling but on one knee

American

@picklemewalnuts Yes, that’s right - I am talking about the history of this particular movement. Was that not clear from my OP?

(Not sure what PTSD a footballer taking the knee would cause though…)

I think the issue is that some people feel that taking the knee has come to symbolise support for the BLM movement and not as a simple anti racist stance. Some feel that BLM has a political agenda and set of beliefs that they don't agree with (e.g. defund the police) so it is against their beliefs to take the knee, which is a stance I would have to respect. It isn't as simple as if you don't take the knee you are a racist.

I never said, and don’t believe, that those who don’t take the knee are racist.

I just wondered if those who felt it is a symbol of subservience understand where it came from.

I feel the same about wearing the poppy - I know, and support, what it symbolises but I feel that the way it has been co-opted by some groups (hard right) isn’t something I’m comfortable with. So over recent years, I haven’t worn a poppy (though I have still made donations).

But I certainly wouldn’t criticise those who do, or assume that they share the beliefs of those I disagree with, especially if they’ve explicitly said that’s not the case (like the England football team has made clear that their taking the knee is not an expression of support for the BLM political group)

No, I have no idea of the origin of taking the knee. The exception being history from the middle ages where servants did it to their masters or monarchy. Hence the reason I find it subservient.

Did you read my post with the link of where it came from? I just wondered if that impacts your view at all

I just find it interesting that many people are angered by what they see as an act of subservience when it is actually intended to be an act of respect, suggested by a veteran (and a white man, to boot).

An alternative act of respect (because standing up was the "usual" one).

I do know the background so it makes sense in a sporting/protest context, but traditionally kneeling has been showing subservience and/or asking for a blessing so if you don't know the reason it's being done I can see why it might seem a bit odd.

I'd say historically standing has been used more to show respect e.g. minute's silence, teacher entering the room, bride entering church, men used to stand if a lady entered the room etc — and indeed that was the one being used before Kaepernick protested by using something different (and I think he was right to, and that a positive action, like taking the knee was a much more polite, and in some ways stronger, symbol than just not moving).

I agree that not knowing where it came from, it makes sense that people get a sense of subservience from it.

What I’m interested is if knowing where it came from makes any difference.

@DrDetriment

I think the issue is that some people feel that taking the knee has come to symbolise support for the BLM movement and not as a simple anti racist stance. Some feel that BLM has a political agenda and set of beliefs that they don't agree with (e.g. defund the police) so it is against their beliefs to take the knee, which is a stance I would have to respect. It isn't as simple as if you don't take the knee you are a racist.

You can’t use the hypothesis that some people use the BLM banner for a political agenda as an excuse to dishonour the BLM movement and nitpick about taking the knee. That smacks of oppression. You’re respecting the status quo to further your own agenda.