To ask if you know where “taking the knees” comes from?

[NewMum0305]

Stemming from the other thread asking what the problem is with taking the knee and some of the responses (a minority) describing it as a “divisive” act and one post saying it caused them to have a “visceral” reaction, I just wondered how many people knew where the act had come from? Particularly those people who are opposed to it.

YABU - I know where “taking the knee” originated from

YANBU - I don’t know where “taking the knee” originated from

Have you seen the ignorance on this issue! Who can tell?? 😂

I don't follow sport, and follow the news half heartedly. I remember it being in the news, and am aware of what has been going on, broadly speaking.

I have reservations about the 'BLM' political movement.

Still, if I was asked to take the knee about racism I would do it because not to do it suggests that I think whatever is going on in my head is more important than racism. It isn't.

Whatever I may be thinking, whatever reservations I may have, pale into insignificance beside the injustice of racism in this country. I don't think this country is awful, or awfully racist- it's just not good enough and it needs to be better. When swathes of our society have worse outcomes because of who they are, that needs to be addressed.

And my ptsd comment was to do with wearing masks.

There's a huge social pressure to clap for the nhs, take the knee, wear a poppy, wear a mask. I dislike that pressure. I do all those things, but don't make judgements about those who don't.

It's a bit naive to imagine that what might work in the context of a certain country will not work in another.

Is it really that complicated and difficult to understand?

There is no winning for black people is there?

They take the knee. They're criticised for being subservient.

They raise a fist. They're criticised for being aggressive.

I suspect a lot of people would like them to just shut up and stop raising difficult topics.

[quote motogogo]@NewMum0305

The problem is that any action that needs a detailed explanation because it's from a different culture is tricky, in the U.K. kneeling is subservient. Kneeling in direct response to an international event (George floyd) had context, whereas its continued use in the U.K. without agreed context means people will criticise. It is American though and many will automatically discount it on that grounds[/quote]
No it isn’t subservient. Most of us understood it. Honestly

@picklemewalnuts

And my ptsd comment was to do with wearing masks.

There's a huge social pressure to clap for the nhs, take the knee, wear a poppy, wear a mask. I dislike that pressure. I do all those things, but don't make judgements about those who don't.

You didn’t have to clap.

That pressure you speak of is your reaction to knowing that you don’t agree with something but probably don’t have a logical reason why not.

The only place in which I've been aware of anyone taking the knee, excepting football matches, is on Game of Thrones.

Thank you for the enlightening replies everyone - the history/origin of it is interesting.

@NewMum0305

A sports star decided not to stand during the national anthem at games to protest racial injustice. A veteran advised him kneeling was a more respectful way to do this.

Now people all over the world take the knee to protest and shine a light on racial injustice.

Is it really that complicated?

Gestures, symbolism and body language are not universal. Just because taking a knee is a sign of respect in the US, doesn't mean that it means the same thing in other cultures. If you don't know the history, can you not see how it may appear to be subservient in a European context, where kneeling is normally only done before superiors, be they God, your King, your master, or whoever.

For what it's worth, I knew the history, I read that linked article before, and I have no issues taking a knee. But I can also see how the gesture itself can be misinterpreted because if cultural differences

I didn't know the recent history. I don't know if Colin Kapernick is aware of the Abolitionist Medallion but there are echos down history of this pose.

If you don't know the history, can you not see how it may appear to be subservient in a European context, where kneeling is normally only done before superiors, be they God, your King, your master, or whoever.

Isn’t that kind of the point though? From standing up, prostrate, two knees, one knee - it’s about respect and honour. Sit down/sit in peaceful protests are well documented. They are about peaceful occupation and resistance. Taking one knee shows respect for the Country/National Anthem but also clearly signals a protest. Sitting down is a much more forceful statement.

So if you were a black American would you go for sitting down- disrespect plus vulnerable to being manhandled and pulled away or taking a knee?

@onlyhereforthecake it’s taking a knee, not reciting the Declaration of Independence.

We seemed to have embraced Halloween with gusto in the country but somehow taking the knee is just toooo American, simply because it happened to be an American who did it first.

MLK @ Selma

It’s shocking how few people know that.

And what I will say is that I find it completely ridiculous and inappropriate that a whole swathes of white people decide that they don’t like the way black people are choosing to protest - it’s subservient, it’s too political, blah blah. So what? YOU want to choose how black people express their protest? Have some bloody respect!

There's always been Halloween in Scotland - it went from there to the US

It's not too american but imv it is, as it says, Black LIVES Matter -it's about the loss of black LIVES to US armed police.
I don't think Brits should take on US problems. It makes it too big to fix. They'll never unarm US police - better we don't go there and try to fix our more fixable problems.
In the UK the police aren't armed.
Use CCTV etc to nail the yobs in the football crowds, insist recruitment is fair, etc etc - we can actually fix things but not armed US police,

@Weebleweeble So it is possible for countries to adopt things from other countries without issue..?

@DoyertyRascal

And what I will say is that I find it completely ridiculous and inappropriate that a whole swathes of white people decide that they don’t like the way black people are choosing to protest - it’s subservient, it’s too political, blah blah. So what? YOU want to choose how black people express their protest? Have some bloody respect!

Yes yes yes.

@Weebleweeble my husband’s ex-partner’s uncle (a black man) died in police custody. Yes, US police are trigger happy but please don’t think it’s only a US problem.

Black people account for 3% of the UK population but 8% of deaths in police custody: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/11/black-deaths-in-police-custody-the-tip-of-an-iceberg-of-racist-treatment

And in any case, I think that Black Lives Matter has very much extended beyond protesting about deaths in police custody, about the rights of black people more generally and the fight against racism. Why shouldn’t people show their support for that?

Taking one knee isn’t subservient. That is an argument that gets brought up in objection to someone who takes a knee in protest.

One knee has been a symbol of respect for centuries of not millenia and is part of various ceremonies

If taking a knee shows subservience then women must be the dominant sex in the West as men traditionally propose on one knee

@Weebleweeble

It's not too american but imv it is, as it says, Black LIVES Matter -it's about the loss of black LIVES to US armed police. I don't think Brits should take on US problems. It makes it too big to fix. They'll never unarm US police - better we don't go there and try to fix our more fixable problems. In the UK the police aren't armed. Use CCTV etc to nail the yobs in the football crowds, insist recruitment is fair, etc etc - we can actually fix things but not armed US police,

My impression was that the UK football players who took a knee were protesting against all racism.

Or are we pretending that there is no racism in the UK now?

If taking a knee shows subservience then women must be the dominant sex in the West as men traditionally propose on one knee.

Well, in that moment yes — isn't that the point? They're offering their fealty to that woman in the same way a knight would to their liege.

But as I was saying with the scuba diving earlier, going down on one knee to propose is a completely different context to taking the knee at the beginning of a sporting match to protest racism. One can be read as subservience and the other as respect.

Or are we pretending that there is no racism in the UK now?

Not at all - racism is throughout our UK society - but the police aren't shooting down black people in the streets.
Which is what BLM seems to be about to me.
I think we should do things differently in the UK, not take on US stuff.

Interesting article OP. I thought, as a pp said, that it had to do with the (possibly American - I grew up in the States) concept used in some sports that if someone was injured on the field, we were meant to 'take a knee' until help came to prevent further injuries or getting in the way (and then we had to be taught not to do it every time someone fell).

I thought it was meant to be symbolic of those injured in our communities by systemic oppression. I'm pretty sure I've heard some others (again Americans) make that connection.

That it was just a veteran and American football player's idea of a compromise between sitting and standing/because kneeling has so many nice meanings does very little for me. It's great that it's come to mean more than that, but I don't see how that origin is meant to be inspiring.

I feel the same about wearing the poppy - I know, and support, what it symbolises but I feel that the way it has been co-opted by some groups (hard right) isn’t something I’m comfortable with. So over recent years, I haven’t worn a poppy (though I have still made donations).

Through etsy, I bought some custom felt poppy pins that say 'Never Again', like some of the original poppies after WW1 said, in part because of my discomfort at how some have used Lest We Forget.