Questions for white people: what is the problem with "taking the knee"

[Flayn]

1. What is the problem with taking the knee
2. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

Surely, the history of the British people is that of the working class, the middle class, the landed gentry, and the aristocracy - the sum and parts of all their actions?

I think you can definitely argue that Mbosnz, but it wasn’t Flaxmeadow’s point.

Britishness is definitely tipped towards the Upper class and imperialism anyway.

I also don’t really get this slavery wasn’t taught at school business. Surely that depends which school you went to and when?

DS and DD went to different schools in the last decade. DS did a whole term of secondary school history on black people of the Americas and the North Atlantic slave trade. He did another term on indigenous people in North America.

DD did nothing about slavery or North America. She did however study the colonisation of India and the suffragettes. DS covered neither.

I don’t know why people think their particular experience of school represents history teaching now.

Also the slave trade, flaxmeadow.
As one example.
Why miss that out?

The post I was replying to said the British must or should, come face to face with their history. My point is, British people, bar a very tiny percent, have a working class history. That is 'their' history

It's definitely wasn't taught in any great detail at school.

It was taught at length at my school in the 1970s. As was US civil rights

All the statues, the leaders, we get a whitewashed version of history for want of a better expression.

Nope, none of the history is whitewashed and I don't understand why people keep saying this, even my own parents were taught the emancipation movement and Wilderforce etc

You have to actively read other sources to see '' the other side '' and I don't think there's any excuse for people not to educate themselves when it is now so easy in the age of the Internet.

The post I was replying to said this is British peoples history. It isn't because the vast majority of British people wer working or labouring class. They had no say in slavery, they had no vote. Infact they were not treated much better than slaves themselves. Not only no vote, but a large number were excluded from public office, due to being Nonconformists and British Catholics

Surely, the history of the British people is that of the working class, the middle class, the landed gentry, and the aristocracy - the sum and parts of all their actions

In 1911 around 85% of British people were either of the labouring class or semi skilled labouring class. Many men still did not have the vote and wouldn't until 1918.

White female 52 no problem. And powerful when done by the (England) team in this manner.

By whitewash I mean when you do learn about leaders, you don't always hear the '' other side - Cook, for example, great big explorer and hero setting off for adventure and discovery.
Not about any atrocities, and if you do it's not always from the point of view of the colonised but of the '' heroes'' finding new worlds.

Most British people also weren't Tudor kings but there's no issue teaching about them as part of British people's history.

Quaggars

Sorry I disagree, and if anything history taught from a class perspective is now being pushed out in favour of an obsession with 'decolonised' history. Which is a big shame

You can disagree, but that's definitely my experience and it is for others too.

none of the history is whitewashed

That's not quite true.

Most British people also weren't Tudor kings but there's no issue teaching about them as part of British people's history.

Tudor kings were a ruling powerful elite. A political and religious force. They should be taught. Why would it be an issue to teach about them?

@Secondbellini

Yes, I wouldn’t have any position on the US police because I have next to no knowledge of what they do, what services they provide, how they connect to other services or how any of it is organised. For all I know they should be massively defunded.

The only thing that should be defunded are their outrageous pensions. Goes for all public sector workers really. Oh and get rid of the public sector unions, which only protect bad apples (police and teacher unions).

I'm not white but I suspect some white people have a problem with it because it highlights a problem in the power structure. Once you recognise a problem you have to fix it i.e. racism & inequality. Some white people simply don't want equality for others.

And why not bursaries for all boys from low income households?
Even so, I expect black boys are even more disadvantaged.
BAME are over represented at Oxford and Cambridge

‘Most British people also weren't Tudor kings but there's no issue teaching about them as part of British people's history.’

I am pretty sure nobody is arguing that either Tudor kings or slavery should not be taught in school.

Currently while there are statutory periods that must be taught in schools there are no statutory topics.

Given that secondary school history is only compulsory for three years, and generally you only get taught it for two hours a week, the vast majority of all historical events are not going to be taught in school.

Hence what is actually significant to people tends to be the history their family tells them, not the very small amount covered in school.

Hence I am very aware of Japanese POW camps and what happened to Palestine after the Second World War, while someone else is going to be really aware of what the British did in Kenya.

@VladmirsPoutine

I'm not white but I suspect some white people have a problem with it because it highlights a problem in the power structure. Once you recognise a problem you have to fix it i.e. racism & inequality. Some white people simply don't want equality for others.

Yes this, I am white but I think it does make people feel either uncomfortable to think about or they don't want any power balance to be messed with?

VladmirsPoutine
I'm not white but I suspect some white people have a problem with it because it highlights a problem in the power structure. Once you recognise a problem you have to fix it i.e. racism & inequality. Some white people simply don't want equality for others.

Have you seen a recent photo of our cabinet ministers?

One of the most important jobs in the country, if not the most, is held by a BAME woman. Our home secretary

@ChainJane

Taking the knee is a meaningless gesture. It's a way of saying "look at me and how socially aware I am" whilst not actually doing anything.

I would prefer athletes protest racism by their actions. Give a large part of their huge incomes to charities that help reduce inequality. Set up scholarships and the like for disadvantaged children. Acknowledge that inequality is not just a black/white issue, there is a lot of grey in between.

As a society we need to accept that some people are racist overtly, some racist but in less obvious ways. Ultimately, everyone is racist to some degree whether they admit it or not. Once we accept that fact we can try to address the reasons behind this. Shouting at racist people, insulting them and "cancelling" them will not change their minds because shouting, insulting and "cancelling" never changes anyone's mind on anything. People might shut up and go away, but they become more certain of their views.

All shouting at, insulting them, cancelling them, does, especially when it is completely mischaracterizing them, such as If you don't kneel, you are a racist! All that does is drive enough of them to vote and you end up with Trump.

Athletes taking the knee to protest racism, racially motivated violence, and police brutality has been happening since 2017.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.nationallanthemprotestss(2016%E2%80%93present)

George Floyd was murdered in 2020.

I suspect white people in the UK who are uncomfortable with UK athletes taking the knee are similar to the genteel racists dotted around my husband's family and extended circle of friends. To them, racism is dangling a black person by the neck from a tree. Anything less severe than that couldn't possibly be racism: it's just the natural order of things. Of course it's natural to assume a black woman in the shop is probably stealing that top, unless she proves otherwise. After all, those people "don't know how to behave". Of course it's natural to think a black singer saying she's from a small village in Northeast Scotland isn't quite right. Of course it's natural to assume that the colleague you called "Paki" as a jocular nickname back in the day was totally fine with it.

If there were a couple of players who were not racists but did not agree with the gesture and didn't take the knee, how do you think they would be judged?

Would they have to provide an explanation for this? We are getting into dangerous territory here IMO

@Flaxmeadow Yes I have and another Equalities by a Black woman. Firstly BAME individuals are not a monolith. Secondly and indeed most pertinently; and the Tories have done this very well! It's no accident or coincidence that certain positions in government are occupied by ethnic minorities. Think about it - Kemi Badenoch - a Black women made a speech basically saying that there's basically no racism in the UK and she did the whole "as a Black woman". See if you can get a Black person to communicate that message - it gives it a lot more credibility than if you got Gove or ostensibly any other white person.

I find it rather bemusing as it's such a wonderful tactic. Again maintaining the power structures. When I left Uni I was offered a job a lucrative one by a certain organisation with questionable views if I could be so to speak their 'tap dancing' ethnic. I declined because I have values but alas. Seems their tactics have worked

I think it's a nice thing.
I do worry that it is becoming less powerful as a statement as it has gone on for a while now, but don't have a better alternative.
I don't like that it is called 'taking the knee' rather than 'kneeling' but I understand that the specific gesture comes from 1950s USA human rights movement and that is what they called it so it's fair enough.
Why anyone would mind enough to boo it is beyond me.

I suspect white people in the UK...

I suspect people in the UK, not just white people, are sick and tired of USA cultural imperialism being pushed on us. Colin Kaepernick and George Floyd are/were not from the UK, or even Europe. We are not the USA.

I suspect people in the UK, not just white people, are sick and tired of USA cultural imperialism being pushed on us

Spot on