Questions for white people: what is the problem with "taking the knee"

[Flayn]

1. What is the problem with taking the knee
2. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

I won’t submit to anyone,it smacks of the Handmaids tale.

I want to know how is taking the knee which is a sign of support for an extreme racist organisation is anti racist

You see people saying "white lives matter" are accused of being racist and the anger over the bursaries for white working class boys, they are simply not allowed

For good reasons...
White lives already matter more than any others. And black lives matter disproprotionately less than others.

And why not bursaries for all boys from low income households?
Even so, I expect black boys are even more disadvantaged.

Anarchists are left wing. It is a left wing ideology.

I agree it isn’t equivalent to the level of organisation of the KKK, but then few political movements are. That is kind of the point of the extreme right. Their ideology is based on fascism- militaristic, highly organised, authoritarian and hierarchical.

‘And why not bursaries for all boys from low income households?’

Because as a country we decided to target people based on ethnicity not just class, and white working class boys perform worse than almost all other working class boys. So there need to be interventions that target the needs of that group. I am not sure bursaries are the answer though.

I have no issue with anyone taking the knee if they choose to, but I have an issue with people being badgered or called out for not doing so, or the expectation of performative virtue signalling.

Lweji
How can there ever be a good reason for not giving a bursary to the lowest performing group in education due to their colour?

My DC are mixed race.
They experienced racism in school, but they also had many friendships with a good mix of children.
One thing I did notice was that much of the segregation came from families/parents, despite the efforts of the school in terms of encouraging everyone to mix. Kids my DC had been friends with since primary school self segregated by 6th form.
We are a very multicultural family/social group so my DC didn't see any of that at home, but, unfortunately experienced racism from all sides at school and especially in the 6th form. One of my DC was accused, simultaneously, of being a f....ing immigrant by a white teenager and having white privilege by a black teenager. In the same class. I feel sad and guilty about that, but I don't know the answer. That said, my DC are very proud of their mixed heritage.
I have never liked football because of the behaviour of some of the fans. I am so depressed and upset by what has happened this week.

@Bollindger

Ok. So please tell me apart from the violence it stored up with status vandalised, what has taking the knee done? I mean there was still booing at the Euro final, people were still rude. If instead of taking a knee £1 had been paid into a fund, to help people we would have something useful to show from a protest. Silences and kneeling cost nothing and are forgotten the second people have finishef doing it. Putting your money where your mouth is can provide results.

The best thing about last year's protests was that a lot of British people finally came face to face with their history. It has been sugar-coated for too long. I'm Irish, married to an Englishman, and my husband knows very little about the acts carried out in the name of 'progress'. Some people don't want to face these truths. If you're worried about Colston, I think he's now safe and warm in a museum somewhere. He had over a hundred years in that spot so he had a good run of it!

Don't know if it's just me or not but it doesn't sit comfortable people saying how others should protest against their rights.
Kind of you can protest but only in a way that feels right for me?
As pp said, fist raise seen '' too aggressive '' now taking the knee '' too subservient ''
How about we all just shut up and let black people decide how they want to protest against racism, and then we can just join them in solidarity however they decide to shine a light on discrimination/racism?
If you'd rather not stand in support, fair enough but you (general you) don't get to tell others how they should do it or that you feel '' anger'' towards those who do want to.

@Chanjer

They are part of antifa

You know antifa isn't actually a thing don't you

I mean they've picked up and run with it in America and we've imported the idea over here, but it's fucking nonsense, trying to compare it to an actual coherent organisation like the KKK is misleading

Like I'm anti fascist, have been on many "antifa" type protests but I'm not left wing or even vaguely left leaning

Well, yes they say they're not a thing . So we just better believe them? Nope, we follow the evidence.

Anarchists are left wing. It is a left wing ideology.

No

‘Anarchists are left wing. It is a left wing ideology.

No’

Of course it is. All the anarchist thinkers are left wing.

Do you not know any basic political history?

The two major schools of thought on which left wing politics are based are Marxism and Anarchism.

@Secondbellini

‘And why not bursaries for all boys from low income households?’

Because as a country we decided to target people based on ethnicity not just class, and white working class boys perform worse than almost all other working class boys. So there need to be interventions that target the needs of that group. I am not sure bursaries are the answer though.

Just in case you don't know second as you do seem open to learning stuff, black Caribbean, traveller, and Bangladeshi boys all perform worse.

Piggy, I have been reading up on the thread and came across this which seems reputable and says white working class boys do the worst, but I assume it depends on the measure?

www.headteacher-update.com/best-practice-article/supporting-the-education-of-white-working-class-boys-schools-poverty-disadvantage-pupil-premium-1/233316/

I know a little bit[ grin]

It's not quite so easy to define, particularly in recent times and to say that all anarchist thinkers are left wing is to cut anarchism off at its first branch

smiley as you told me , it takes two seconds to google, whereupon you will find the plentiful, varied and manifold objections to and concerns about the Kick It Out campaign and then hove on over to twitter and see what some people write in response to their tweets.

second the first sentence literally says among the worst. It's complex and not for this thread really but lumping all people of black heritage in together clouds the data 9and skews it in favour of those who want to ignore any issues with institutional racism /systemic racism in education). There is also no real measure of 'working class'.

"Questions for white people"....?

@Flayn did you mean "Questions for those who have a problem with 'taking the knee'?"

Not all of those people are white, you know.

And some (including me) would consider it racist to attribute a hive mind opinion to ALL members of a particular racial group.

Anyway... to answer your questions (as a 'white person' who does have a problem with this action):

1. What is the problem with taking the knee

a) it's become associated with BLM, a political group that many do not wish to identify themselves with.

b) it has connotations of submission, which I dislike.

c) I don't think the gesture articulates the concept of anti-racism very clearly. Why kneel, specifically? What are they kneeling to? I think there are more appropriate actions that could be taken (see also 2b).

d) it's a gesture that has precisely zero effect on racist behaviour in the real world. No racist person, even if every football team in the world kneels before every game for the rest of time, will become 'un-racist' because of it.

e) as a group gesture, it puts pressure on every member of a team to take part, even if individuals are not comfortable with it and might prefer to do something different. Peer pressure exists even in service of good causes, and can impinge on personal freedom.

1. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

a) Athletes (and everyone) need to call out and socially reject instances of racism wherever they encounter them in their everyday lives.

b) if some kind of group gesture is absolutely required (it isn't), I would prefer to see something like a line-up of players/coaches etc linking arms in solidarity.

Finally, I also agree with the PP who pointed out that it is not possible to 'end racism', just like it's not possible to 'end murder' or 'end child abuse'. And if I had to prioritise those three (all laudable) aims, racism would come third, not first. We need to retain a sense of proportionality.

Having said that, I signed the petition calling for lifetime bans of racist 'fans', and I find deliberate racist abuse (of anyone) abhorrent. There has been some absolutely shameful behaviour on the part of a small number of individuals, and the most effective deterrent is for people in their families/colleges/friendship circles/workplaces to call them out on it whenever it occurs.

The problem is that we all (racists included) tend to mostly stay in an echo chamber with people who broadly agree with our views, so positive peer pressure around racist people is often lacking.

To me kneeling is a sign of submission, one kneels to put themselves lower than others, quite literally bowing to a master. Which in the context of slavery is pretty ironic

In the US context you have to stand UP to pledge allegiance to the country, president, and anthem. That's why kneeling became a thing, refusing to pay respects (esp to Trump). In the UK it may have had different connotations in the past (eg feudality) but in this day and age we all know what it means and should support it as a modern, symbolic means of (peaceful) protest. I'm sure P William was aware they weren't bowing to him!

‘In the UK it may have had different connotations in the past (eg feudality) but in this day and age we all know what it means and should support it as a modern, symbolic means of (peaceful) protest.’

I am becoming more and more in favour of taking the knee, but this is just a crazy interpretation.

To be on your knees is really widely understood in popular culture as being in a weak or humble position. It is in phrases, pop songs, churches, mosques and it is really entrenched in culture for a very long time.

Taking the knee is less than two years old in the U.K.

Obviously many people will need a bit of time to really get what it means and what is going on. Most people aren’t on Twitter, a cultural studies course or are the future king with a team of advisors.

Give people a bit of a chance to keep up with new cultural meanings.

Piggy, then read beyond the first sentence. It does then demonstrate they are the worst by the measures used. I agree that we need to be more nuanced that just black, Asian etc as it is disguising disadvantage between different groups.

‘Data suggests that white working class boys are among the lowest attainers in our schools. Matt Bromley considers why this is and what schools might be able to do about it

In 2019, the average Attainment 8 score for pupils who were not eligible for free school meals (FSM) was 45.6. Currently, around 10 per cent of white pupils, 20 per cent of black pupils, and 45 per cent of Bangladeshi pupils receive FSM. In total, there were 33,697 boys on FSM who sat their GCSEs in 2019. Of these:

1,093 Bangladeshi boys achieved an average score of 42.8.
2,880 black boys achieved an average score of 34.5.
22,720 white boys achieved an average score of 28.5.
This data shows that white boys in receipt of FSM (who we might term “white working class boys” although, of course, FSM eligibility is not synonymous with working class) underperform compared to all other groups.

Of course, it is true that white British pupils perform slightly better, on average, than BAME children. But, because girls perform significantly better on average than boys, and pupils who are not eligible for FSM perform significantly better on average than pupils who are, then white boys eligible for FSM perform markedly worse than pupils from every other category, including FSM pupils from every other ethnicity.‘

The best thing about last year's protests was that a lot of British people finally came face to face with their history. It has been sugar-coated for too long. I'm Irish, married to an Englishman, and my husband knows very little about the acts carried out in the name of 'progress

British people face to face with their history? British people's history is working class, from labouring in the fields to the factories and coal mines. Then forming the first trade unions, fighting for representation, better housing and working conditions, an end to child labour, and the vote.

Are those the 'acts' are you're referring to?

Also the slave trade, flaxmeadow.
As one example.
Why miss that out?
It's definitely wasn't taught in any great detail at school.
All the statues, the leaders, we get a whitewashed version of history for want of a better expression.
You have to actively read other sources to see '' the other side '' and I don't think there's any excuse for people not to educate themselves when it is now so easy in the age of the Internet.

I think Flax Meadow’s point is that the history of the British People is a working class one.

Most people won’t be the descendent of a slave trader but almost all British people will be descended from working class people who fought for their rights so will often have a strong personal connection and often memories of those events.