So embarrassed to be English today

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Usually I am slightly defensive of the criticism the English get but today I feel like I have nothing left to defend. Riots, defacing murals of wonderful role models for our children, racism, violence. Horrendous behaviour from a considerable number of English fans. We are just playing up to the thuggish, drunk, stupid stereotypes. That along with the decision to just open everything up which has been highly criticised for being bonkers, the never-ending shame of Brexit. For the first time I feel embarrassed to be English and associated with any of this. Having said that, I personally don't know a single person who behaved badly post match or spewed vile racism online (thank god). I also mainly socialise/spend time with left wing remainers it seems.

Does anyone feel the same? Are there any redeeming features of the English or are we doomed to be the laughing stock of the world? I was so proud of our football team (still am) and the unity and excitement everyone felt. Part of me thinks this would have been so different if we won but why should it be?! We should be able to respond to a disappointment like rational adults instead of abusive idiots.

The problem is the general hating English sentiment expressed by many on this thread. It's racist you see.

No, it really isn't. And I'm sure it needs no pointing out as to why it's so problematic to suggest it is. It's xenophobic, if it really necessitates a label.

The English are a disparate nation of people whose predominant demographic is white. If you belong to that demographic then it's at best disingenuous to suggest you can experience racism in the same way as those which have been subjugated (yes, they have) by that group since pretty much time immemorial.

It's simply not the same thing. At all.

@herecomesthsun

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/13/manchester-shows-support-for-marcus-rashford-its-evolved-into-something-special

This is lovely though

Isn't it just and the Artist that painted the mural of Marcus Rashford spent some time today painting out the abuse he got on it.

It's simply not the same thing. At all.

It’s not the same thing no. But begrudgingly giving it it’s correct label, xenophobia, is hardly helping matters. Both racism and xenophobia are borne of hate, of division and ignorance. Either you shun them both or you’re part of the problem.

It’s not the same thing no. But begrudgingly giving it it’s correct label, xenophobia, is hardly helping matters. Both racism and xenophobia are borne of hate, of division and ignorance. Either you shun them both or you’re part of the problem.

Not to the same level. I've already explained why this is the case. I also maintain that the kind of racism experienced by our BAME compatriots on an institutional, covert and also overt level, can't even be compared with any issues a white English person might face, say, because the English get a bad rap for rowdy drunkenness and street-fornicating overseas when I personally wouldn't dream of indulging in any such behaviour. Likewise lumping us all in with the racist twits sometimes attracted into the 'fandom' of our national game.

This is nothing like the prejudice and discrimination suffered on a daily basis by BAME people, which SimonJT has enumerated very eloquently on an earlier page of this thread.

If you really can't discern any difference between the two, then it's you who are part of the problem.

'It’s not the same thing no. But begrudgingly giving it it’s correct label, xenophobia, is hardly helping matters. Both racism and xenophobia are borne of hate, of division and ignorance. Either you shun them both or you’re part of the problem.'

This!

It doesn't really matter what the label is to apparently hate people because of where they were born is not ok.

It's not that xenophobia and racism are the same but the hate that motivates it can be just as powerful.
I will say, I noticed Scottish men calling English players names during the game but they were far more venomous towards Saka and Rashford than other players. There was an overlap almost disguised because hating the English is accepted and passed off as banter.
I'm sure it goes both ways, I'm just referring to my experience of watching the game in Scotland.

If you really can't discern any difference between the two, then it's you who are part of the problem

Oh I see, it’s a race to the bottom for you is it. Since there are always people in a worse position, anyone else has no right to complain about intolerance and injustice.

It looks very much like you’re trying to hide your own intolerance behind anti-racism.

*No, it really isn't. And I'm sure it needs no pointing out as to why it's so problematic to suggest it is. It's xenophobic, if it really necessitates a label.

The English are a disparate nation of people whose predominant demographic is white. If you belong to that demographic then it's at best disingenuous to suggest you can experience racism in the same way as those which have been subjugated (yes, they have) by that group since pretty much time immemorial.

It's simply not the same thing. At all*

Not by name, but by nature it most certainly is.
People have died as a result of their religion or nationality, just as they have because of their race. They have been prejudged, considered inferior, ostracised, castigated and persecuted.

To the persecutor, only the criteria for discrimination changes.
To the persecuted, why doesn't matter, the persecution is the same.

Beaten for being black is the same as being beaten for being Muslim is the same for being beaten for being gay, is the same as being beaten for being female.

Xenophobia is racist. It is why is racial discrimination in both U.K. law and in international human rights law.

I am so glad the mural has been repaired so quickly and that people have added to it.

The whataboutery on this thread is truly something to behold.

The whataboutery on this thread is truly something to behold

No, don’t even go there. The abhorrent racist abuse of 3 young black players has been rightfully called out by many. It is not acceptable in the same breath to preach xenophobic hate and then accuse those who also object to this, of whataboutery.

Really, take a long, hard look at yourself.

Xenophobia is racist. It is why is racial discrimination in both U.K. law and in international human rights law.
Technically, they aren't the same, but I think for all intents and purposes they are so closely related, it really isn't important.

Prejudice is prejudice. To be hated because you're female, gay, black, Muslim, Irish... ultimately stems from the same irrationality.

There would never be any comfort gained by the persecuted to learn 'it's not because you're black, it's because you're female, or American'

YABVU. There’s plenty to be proud of in our country and to say you’re ashamed to be English because of a minority of dickhead football fans is ridiculous. Did you cause any of the damage yourself ? Did you break into the stadium and steal seats, or throw racist abuse, do you know anyone who did ? If not, then you have nothing to be ashamed of - it’s the perpetrators of this mindless shit who should be ashamed. And by the way Italy saw it’s fair share of violence and damage - have a look at YouTube posts.

I wish I was Scottish ... or maybe Swedish/Finnish ...

Anything but English!

All the flag shaggers have made anything with a union flag on it thorough cringeworthy & I even avoid buying stuff in the supermarket if its now got a flag and 'Great British Carrotts' on it ... eeewww! Can't they JUST be Carrotts?

90% of racist abuse came from abroad.

There are millions of Brown and Black English who’re sick of BLM division

…take a look at Twitter.

Totally ashamed. And now with MPs voting for foreign aid cuts, I'm mortified too.

@SJ2020

90% of racist abuse came from abroad.

There are millions of Brown and Black English who’re sick of BLM division

…take a look at Twitter.

Bot

I wish I was Scottish ... or maybe Swedish/Finnish ...

So from somewhere a bit whiter basically.

@HandyGirl76

Totally ashamed. And now with MPs voting for foreign aid cuts, I'm mortified too.

😂😂😂

I voted for Brexit and vote Conservative but I would never behave in the ways the thugs have. Being a Remainder and voting for Labour are nothing to do with if you are a thug or not. Your post implied only left wing Remainers were not thugs.

@DrSbaitso

Does this happen in other countries?

Yes.

Was in Lisbon when Portugal lost 1-0 home against Greece in the final of the Euro 2004. Saw NOTHING of the kind. Greeks were allowed to celebrate peacefully in the capital streets while Portuguese were sad but calm. No racism either towards any player.

Nobody should be ashamed of their nationality, nobody. And certainly not because of the actions of others who they wholly disagree with.

Shame is a harmful and destructive emotion, as much of Brené Brown’s research shows.

To the people who were saying Italian fans trashed cities in Italy, do you have a link? I haven't seen anything about that. I did see you usual suspects trashing London though. I also woke up to read the horrific racial abuse of the players on Twitter. We are pretty much universally despised and no wonder really when the world is watching this...and they are watching. I live in Spain and it's been reported here. I often see the behaviour of the English on Spanish TV, because they do the same shit here too. Thanks to Covid there aren't many tourists here at the moment, only residents, or Benidorm would have been trashed too on Sunday night. I feel proud of the team and how they performed, but there's definitely been a cloud cast over that feeling with the predictable aftermath. Sure Marcus Rashford et al would agree with that too.

@cass5

You failed to mention the widespread looting, rioting and deaths in France after they WON the last world cup. Why?