Rigid school uniforms

[Waitrosedisaster]

I've just had the usual letter from my child's secondary school, where it outlines all the dos and don'ts surrounding school uniform for the next academic year.

Is anyone just absolutely sick of the outdated concept of strict uniforms? The nitty gritty details of 'only black or brown hair bobbles', 'no bows on socks', 'all clothes including p.e kit must have the school logo'. Why? Just why? My personal favourite this year is the following 'any piercing other than single lobe piercings will be removed immediately, regardless of when piercing was obtained'. Also, nail varnish and shellac will also be removed immediately? Wtf?

School uniforms (other than being used as a money making scheme) were originally used for purposes not to dissimilar from uniforms for prisons, or mental health units. They were used to strip away a person's individuality and make them more likely to conform and obey as they are effectively 'uniform'. It's such an outdated concept and I find it bizarre that schools are able to even dictate which (overpriced) shops the uniform must come from.

I hear arguments from teacher friends about how uniforms are better for low income families, but are they really? Unless the parents do not work, are they even able to claim money off uniforms?

Anyone else agree?

I don't see how uniforms are better for low income families. My DS's school doesn't have uniform and I send him in in the primark t shirts that are less than £2 each.

My dds primary has just stipulated no brands.

However my dd will be going into yr 6 in September so there's no way I will fork out fir anything unnecessarily for what's really just a few months and I have no one know to pass it down to. Dd will continue to wear what she has .

I.assume it apples to anyone buying new and new starters.

Just because people are lucky enough to afford it doesn't mean its ok to turn round and rip them off unnecessarily.

The solution to strict or expensive uniforms isn't remove them entirely

I've never argued that it was. I'm all for a uniform but it should be comfortable, cheap, practical and most importantly, affordable. Obligatory logos and blazers from the school outfitters shouldn't have any place in a state school uniform list.

But lots of schools don't ALLOW them to be bought "cheaply everywhere". That's the entire argument lol. Insisting uniform comes from certain shops at certain prices is wrong.
It's not the whole argument. There's a lot of valid arguments against expensive single supplier uniforms or limited supplier uniforms.

Having "school trousers" as the uniform rule and expecting parents to buy a pair of school trousers and not buy leggings, jeggings, joggers, jeans, tracksuit bottoms, fashion trousers is entirely reasonable.

School trousers trousers be bought in most supermarkets, from Matalan, M&S, Next, online shops, and if people have the sense to buy the school trousers on offer most shops that sell clothing for preteens/teens like New Look.

If parents read a uniform rule and then choose to buy something that is clearly not allowed then they're being silly.

If parents read a uniform rule and then choose to buy something that is clearly not allowed then they're being silly.

Again, they may not be going out and deliberately buying stuff against the rules. Maybe their DC only has one pair of "school trousers" and they've developed a hole in the crotch.

They live rurally and can't get to a big supermarket until the weekend so they send their DC in the next best thing - but if they're not 'regulation' the DC gets punished due to the parents' lack of funds. Even an online order will take a couple of days to arrive.

Whereas if the school specify "black unbranded trousers" the child can go in wearing another pair of trousers they own that fit, and they don't need to worry about sticking out or getting in trouble for wearing the wrong thing.

I mean, the nearest shop to hear that sells "school trousers" is ASDA and that's a 45 minute drive away. There is nowhere else.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

Why not just "wear plain black/grey trousers". Why the need to specify the style? Does it really matter if Josie wears leggings but Sophie prefers something else?

It matters because Josie's mum is loaded and will go and buy expensive branded fancy black leggings with various features indicating they are fashionable and expensive, and Sophie's mum is a lone parent on a tight budget who will have to buy cheap thin ones in Asda, and no matter what anyone says, kids spot the difference and it's an issue, and Sophie ends up feeling crap about her trousers.

Fashion brands don't make tailored style school trousers because they are unfashionable. So they are only sold by supermarkets, m&s, john lewis etc and you honestly cannot tell the difference visually between the different pairs other than perhaps one or other brand comes up slimmer etc so fits a child better etc. The lack of variation & fashion input required means they can be mass produced for low cost.

Except that’s not the reason otherwise schools wouldn’t insist that you buy the staple items from a specific shop, always more expensive than Asda.

I like my twins wearing school uniform as putting it on means they understand they are going to school - but it’s literally a sweatshirt or polo shirt and whatever else. They wear joggers and whatever shoes and that’s that. Makes life much easier.

As for the Clark’s shoes, there should be no reason why schools refuse to allow black leather shoes from a back to school range. No reason at all. It makes no bloody difference. And if a working mum takes her kid shoe shopping after school because theirs have been damaged or suddenly outgrown and all they can get in the right size are black school shoes that slightly trainer like, that should be fine. There’s no justification for it.

And all the “getting used to workplace rules” is a nonsense really - other countries schools manage to turn out employable adults, and everywhere I’ve ever worked has been far more casual and flexible than a school uniform (even when I worked at places with uniforms as a teenager I could still wear whatever black trousers I wanted within reason).

warmfluffytowels
So surely when school trousers rip and they're waiting for new ones the parent write a note to the school, which covers them (just like most parents do when their child is wearing trainers when their school shoes break/stop fitting and it's going to be a week until they get a pair)?

In bid to push the idea that children wearing school trousers trousers school is unreasonable, you're assuming now that all children will have a pair of black unbranded trousers at home on hand just in case their only pair of school trousers develops a rip. Many won't. Plenty of secondary students won't be spending their social time in trousers that are plain, and black, and unbranded.

A simple school trousers rule isn't that unreasonable.

Whereas school uniforms can cost several hundred pounds per child - and for what benefit?

Being in an area with several high schools, it has benefitted local businesses and public transport to be able to contact the schools when there have been children causing issues. It doesn't solve it entirely, but it has made a difference in helping to curb some elements especially at going home time. The uniforms definitely act like advertising. Obviously in an area where there is only one choice, it'll likely not be as useful.

Even at my DS's school with no uniform in the classroom, there are uniforms if in the workshop or doing activities outside of the building and at all the non-uniform schools I went to, there was still uniforms for PE because we sometimes left the building for it -- in fact, we had to write our names on the front and back so we could be identified when out (I caused some confusion by using a different name in PE class because of this rule to the rest of my classes at one school, it was fun, I loved it).

And, being in an area of deprivation, we do have big businesses donating uniform clothes along with stationery that are passed on either free or for a nominal charge (stationery packs at my DD's uniform school are a quid). There are ways to make them accessible and whether uniform or having a dress code to have a balance - that some schools put more barriers in the way has less to do with it being a uniform school and more to do with the school board's attitude - I've seen some ridiculous high barrier dress codes. That some don't have a choice is why some have been pushing for legislative changes.

@warmfluffytowels

If parents read a uniform rule and then choose to buy something that is clearly not allowed then they're being silly.

Again, they may not be going out and deliberately buying stuff against the rules. Maybe their DC only has one pair of "school trousers" and they've developed a hole in the crotch.

They live rurally and can't get to a big supermarket until the weekend so they send their DC in the next best thing - but if they're not 'regulation' the DC gets punished due to the parents' lack of funds. Even an online order will take a couple of days to arrive.

Whereas if the school specify "black unbranded trousers" the child can go in wearing another pair of trousers they own that fit, and they don't need to worry about sticking out or getting in trouble for wearing the wrong thing.

I mean, the nearest shop to hear that sells "school trousers" is ASDA and that's a 45 minute drive away. There is nowhere else.

That’s far too logical.

And of course we are all supposed to have duplicates on hand just in case - I have to buy so many pairs of trousers for my twins so they have spares at school, trousers to wear each day while the previous ones are drying, extras because they get stained and damaged etc. Thank goodness they can also wear them at weekends!

Being in an area with several high schools, it has benefitted local businesses and public transport to be able to contact the schools when there have been children causing issues.

A logo sweatshirt with everything else generic would do the same, and having custom PE kits serve no such purpose.

BiBabbles
Those outcomes could be easily achieved with a school jumper.
There's no justification for expensive, single supplier uniforms. I have some sympathy when schools go down that route after parents seem apparently incapable of following simple rules, but there's other ways to have a uniform without expecting parents to spend hundreds on a few items.

Being in an area with several high schools, it has benefitted local businesses and public transport to be able to contact the schools when there have been children causing issues. It doesn't solve it entirely, but it has made a difference in helping to curb some elements especially at going home time. The uniforms definitely act like advertising. Obviously in an area where there is only one choice, it'll likely not be as useful.

But you can achieve that with a plain coloured jumper, and just have each school in the area using a different colour. No need for it to be branded or expensive.

The town I grew up in had three state high schools. All had identical uniforms of plain grey trousers or black trousers, white polo shirts and a coloured plain jumper - one school had green, one navy and one black. Nothing branded, no ties, nothing that had to come from certain suppliers. It was fine.

In bid to push the idea that children wearing school trousers trousers school is unreasonable, you're assuming now that all children will have a pair of black unbranded trousers at home on hand just in case their only pair of school trousers develops a rip. Many won't. Plenty of secondary students won't be spending their social time in trousers that are plain, and black, and unbranded.

Most children will have a pair of plain unbranded trousers. Not tailored school-uniform style, but I see kids all the time in black jeans or joggers or leggings. Wearing those items to school instead of tailored trousers is really not the end of the world, lol.

A simple school trousers rule isn't that unreasonable.

I mean, we're clearly not going to agree. Trousers are trousers. I really don't see why the style makes any difference to discipline, educational outcomes or anything else. As long as the children are comfortable and not showing their underwear, why does it matter?

As long as the children are comfortable and not showing their underwear, why does it matter?

This.

Schools then email parents asking for shorts to wear under skirts so they don't show their knickers.

So.we have school trousers that don't really fit girls very well so most opt for skirts but then.said skirts need additional its of clothing to also.make those acceptable for school therfore admitting uniform.is not realky fit for purpose anyway but the one thing that would prevent all this isn't allowed

@Iggly

You can have rules about clothes to stop inappropriate dressing - you don’t need uniform in secondary schools to address it.

Uniform costs an absolute fortune. It’s disgraceful. And we can afford it!

NEVER had uniform. That doesn't mean we could wear a strippers outfit to school either I remember this particularly strict teacher telling my friend she had to choose between having a shirt tied around her waist and a "pirate" scarf on her head insane woman

warmfluffytowels
I've already said several times in the thread that I would be happy with a dress code instead of a uniform. I also think uniforms are good in many cases because some parents seem to read one very clear rule (such as no false nails) and think that means do the exact opposite, usually whilst arguing that it's crushing children's spirits and eradicating creativity if their child doesn't wear blingy plastic nail extensions.

At the end of the day what my preference would be doesn't change the fact that a school having school trousers in their uniform is a reasonable rule.

The problem with the uniform debate is is too many people seem to think that something is automatically unreasonable if it's not the choice they would prefer.

@bushhbb

*I agree with you. A secondary school is a huge expense and worry for low income families. There are many ways of identifying a child's background even with a uniform. Things also got lost or damaged causing even more aggro.

If you have your own clothes , you don't need to spend 200+ or replace overpriced garments from one or two shops.*

---

I have a feeling people who say this are wealthy enough to have a full and varied wardrobe for their kids

I would've absolutely hated school without a uniform- it was bad enough with one (wrong coat/shoes/bag). The pressure to wear branded clothes, new outfit everyday and conform to trends. Absolutely no.

Schools offer free or discounted blazers, skirts and trousers for those who really need it. Forcing parents to have to buy 10 Nike tracksuits to fit in at school isn't doing anybody a favour, because that's what it would've been at my school.

Ds has what he wants and needs, but it's simple basic clothing, tshirts, cargo shorts, jeans, hoodies. He has no Nike tracksuits and no interest in them. No pressure to conform to trends at all. I am a lone parent on 20k so not FSM but not wealthy.

We have money to get uniform and got, for example, the trousers from the uniform shop instead of a supermarket. Within 2 months the knees were a different colour!!!! Ridiculous!

We have jeans from Primark that have been worn by 2 children and are in storage waiting for child no3 to grow!! You can buy nice clothes for cheap

Forgot to say that DD is so skinny the trousers keep showing her underwear!!! and yes, I tried fixing it and it didn't work

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

My friends dd who grew to 6ft by year 8 wore the schools only available skirt online by the school supplier and spent months in and out of isolation because it was too short. It was the only skirt the school would allow her to wear 🤦‍♀️ In the end she was moved schools because there was just way way to solve the issue short of having her legs shortened!

I literally do not believe she was put in isolation constantly if wearing the skirt as it was intended and the hem had been let down fully etc. I know a family with a daughter in exactly the same position but she was isolated because she was constantly rolling up the already short skirt to bum length. No school would get away with constantly punishing a pupil but failing to suggest a solution. I suspect a solution will have been offered (wearing trousers etc).

You not believing it doesn't make it untrue. 🤷‍♀️

She switched to another school that used a supplier that did short, normal and long length skirt in the school style and they had 2 style choices.
The school she moved from was a failing secondary state that switched to an academy and continued failing.

They just made the rules more and more draconian but it didn't improve the school. These schools do exist even if you've never experienced them.

Speaking more generally this is exactly the problem schools have: they make a fairly simple rule like "wear school trousers, not fashion ones, not jeans, not leggings" and some parents see that and decide that doesn't apply to them

I understand school trousers need to be not too tight, no zips or slogans or joggers.

But I think typical supermarket school trousers are very impractical for infants, in winter. Especially last year when covid meant all doors and Windows had to be open. Plus infants are expected to sit on the floor for long periods, do lots of outdoor physical activities so trousers with some stretch are less restrictive.

The teacher said nothing about half the reception class sending both boys and girls into school in jeggings last winter. Maybe she didn’t notice as they looked like black skinny fit school trousers. Or she noticed and was glad the children were dressed warmly in thermal fleece lined trousers rather than shivering in thin ones?

They were not immodest in any way and were completely plain.

I have a problem with school uniform being inappropriate for weather. If children are physically uncomfortable or cold/hot how can they concentrate on learning?

I’ll continue to try and find alternatives to traditional uniform that look almost the same, as I don’t want my DC being uncomfortable or restricted by their clothing.

The DC could iron the collars if they wanted them to stand up

At 5 and 7 it would be me ironing the shirts, a job I’d struggle to fit into my already packed weekends (FT working mum). They have to have a clean shirt daily so ironing 10 shirts (plus any spares they’ve used eg if they spilt something) would take a while.

"School trousers" means that students can find a pair of school trousers in a cut that fits and suits them. There's enough options out there and lots of shops sell school trousers

I think it’s not as easy for boys. Girls school trousers are often thick jersey stretch fabric and pull up style (eg Tu) but boys ones have fastenings and zero stretch, this is why my friend buys girls trousers for her son with sensory needs.

Also boys trousers all seem to have this Teflon coating (as if girls don’t rip the knees too 😂?) so they’re stiff and restrictive.

Parents generally just want their child to be comfortable, and if that means a different style of trouser I don’t see the issue provided they look like school trousers?

I suspect alotof that is because they've been raised in uniform themselves. It's a weir part of the UK "tradition" to stick kids in shirts, ties and blazers at aged 4, for some reason

You’re probably right. I think a lot of parents also dislike confrontation so they buy alternatives that look almost the same.

For example I never do my DCs top button because they say it ‘chokes’ them and I do their ties loosely do they’re not restrictive. I shop around for black trousers they like yet aren’t necessarily school trousers, so that’s thermal fur lined jeggings in winter and thin baggy jersey trousers in summer (or skirts).

They don’t look particularly smart but they’re both academically ahead and well behaved. No snobbery as it’s a state school with a not-great offstead.

I did get annoyed when my older DD was told her shoes should be entirely black and the soles were yellow! But I sent a note in explaining how hard it is to get shoes that accommodate her high instep and wide feet, and the teacher leg it drop. They were leather, polished and sensible just had the wrong colour sole 🙄