to think "I'll wait for them to ask" is bad parenting?

[SesameOrangutan]

There's a thread I've just seen where a parent has said they're contemplating asking their DC whether they want something that they really should've had a long time ago but that they don't want to offer it to them because they want the DC to come to them and ask for it of their own volition.
I've had friends with this too - like a friend whose DD had hairy legs and she was waiting for her daughter to bring it up and ask about hair removal instead of her mentioning it. A lot of children/teens really smell bad but their parents are waiting for them to bring up wearing deodorant (which they won't until it's too late because they won't know they smell until someone else points it out).
When I was a child/teen, we grew up without much money and I never felt like I could ask for anything. DM seemed completely oblivious that things I needed weren't being provided for and, because she had a temper, I never felt comfortable asking for anything or bringing anything up myself. DM would never, ever see my childhood that way and genuinely believes we had a very close relationship. My wages from my part-time job went directly into her account. I never had sanitary products because I couldn't ask my mum for them so I used toilet roll instead (which doesn't work btw), I used to shave my legs/armpits at friends houses in their bathrooms when I asked to use the toilet, I didn't eat breakfast or lunch (my mum ate at work and it didn't seem to occur to her that there was nothing at home for breakfast/lunch).
I wonder how many well meaning parents are putting all the responsibility on their children to ask for basic things that they need - and how many children are too scared, embarrassed or naive to ask for it. AIBU to think that a major part of being a parent is pro-actively providing for your child or asking about their needs instead of always sitting and waiting for instructions from a child on what they need?

That’s what I think this thread is about - not body hair necessarily- but actively letting your child know about options for things that might/will be on the future - breast, body odour, acne, periods and/or having discussions around those issues when they turn up.

Yes.

I think the OP (and some PPs) grew up in a very neglectful environment and are therefore mixing the very harmful things their parents did (like not providing sanitary protection and taking their DCs money) with things that even good parents choose to not raise (like leg shaving) because they disagree with the strict gender roles that exist in our society. In my experience my teenage DC are more than happy to present a strong case for things they know DH and I don't want to do

Also yes.

God, this thread is making me miss my mum. I wish I’d told her what a bloody good job she did of teen stuff, now I see I’m teaching that age with my DC. She bought me the expensive chlorine-reducing shampoo & conditioner she’d researched herself (I was a swimmer) and she encouraged me to the doctor (mortifying, but necessary) for my absolutely awful back and chest acne. There were always pads and tampons available in our bathroom and I never even considered they weren’t meant for me. On the other hand we never talked about body hair in either a positive or a negative way - but she did tell me I smelled and needed deodorant (and provided it!)

If you’ve had a good experience of parenting through puberty you can see where the lines of letting it lie and bringing it up are. If you’ve had a terrible experience of the same, of course you’ll feel not discussing anything is awful.

There’s nuance in it.

I had terrible facial hair as a teen and would have welcomed some intervention. I also hacked my ankle with a blunt razor blade ,shaving my legs, still visible today after 40 years. Had to buy san pro myself and often used toilet roll if I didn’t have any money. I always make sure there’s plenty of razors and other toiletries for my kids.

There’s nuance in it

Even more so if you consider that there’ll be individual teenage responses that don’t necessary marry with parental approaches. Some teens are mortified by some pubertal changes even if their parents are open, caring and thoughtful and can be just too embarrassed to discuss particular things. Even if the children are generally opinionated, articulate and assertive.

Op your parents were neglectful.
No lunch, breakfast, No deodorant and no Sanpro is neglect.

I had a little bag with spare undies, pads, tampons and a Note that Mum put in my school bag just incase from when I was about 10. It was used by my friends more than it was used by me.

This thread has brought back so many memories for me. Having my mum's friend give me a bra as a present. Even then my mum didn't buy me anymore.

Starting my period at school, coming home and my mum wordlessly giving me a sanitary towel. Fortunately, products then available but no discussion about how I felt about it all.

I therefore, want to scream at all the irrelevant talk about to shave or not shave legs. Focus on all the other stuff for goodness sake! The important thing is the OP's mum didn't consider her needs, didn't talk to her, didn't look after her properly. Like mine didn't in some areas due to embarrassment, depression, thoughtlessness, whatever.

@nolongersurprised

There’s nuance in it

Even more so if you consider that there’ll be individual teenage responses that don’t necessary marry with parental approaches. Some teens are mortified by some pubertal changes even if their parents are open, caring and thoughtful and can be just too embarrassed to discuss particular things. Even if the children are generally opinionated, articulate and assertive.

I have a dd 11 like this.

I talk to her very openly and think I really am not embarrassed, but she acts totally mortified and clams up..... I feel like I am torturing her by mentioning things, but persevere because I hate the idea of her not knowing or feeling it's taboo... my impression is she is listening and grateful for the info, but just feels really embarrassed, regardless of how I approach it. She's assertive and confident in other ways, but I think in some ways she just doesn't like the idea of growing up (although it's starting to happen to her!).

I just hope if I mention these things in a Normal, relaxed way often enough, she will relax at some point. But I can't get any words out from her about her thoughts/feelings/preferences. So I tend to just chat about what did/didn't happen for me, how girls/women often experience or chose to do X or Y, and leave it at that. I have got her books too, and sitting down reading a bit works sometimes - I think the less directness makes it less difficult for her. Any other tips anybody has for this kind of child would be much appreciated!

Any other tips anybody has for this kind of child would be much appreciated!

Well, my DD is 13 and has a phone so with regard to her skin an initial text conversation and then side to side conversations in the car have gone well. I also bought Kaz Cooke’s Girl Stuff book which is breezy but informative, and includes info like how often to change a pad, where to put the soiled one etc which I’m pretty sure she read at some stage. My older DD was completely unfazed with asking me anything so she has necessitated a change in approach!

I’ve learned as well that if she’s insistent about coming along to something boring - like the supermarket - there’s usually something else she wants to talk about.

So many memories here too and I feel quite sad recalling them. There are two types of women posting here I think. Those who had a normal mother/daughter relationship and those of us who didn’t. It is difficult to comprehend for those who had a role model or normalcy for a decent mother/parent/guardian to understand how traumatic it was for those who didn’t. So I don’t think you are projecting OP at all. Those feelings of being the smelly/hungry/neglected child really resurface when your child reaches the same milestones. So for those among us who had shite mothers. You have to grieve for your own lost childhood whilst trying to navigate without a reference point of how be a great parent to your own children. My own ‘D’M also tells anyone who will listen what a great mother she was and how close we are. She is a narcissist. I will shed no tears when she dies. She also loves to tell everyone her amusing anecdote about the time I was 9 and asked about periods and how clever She was telling me it meant ‘a word to describe time in history’ I remember thinking at that moment - why have other mothers shared this ‘secret’ with their daughters and I’m the only one who isn’t allowed to know? Why does she think I’m an idiot? I never trusted her with any life queries after that. Sex was wrong, tampons kill you (she trained as a nurse fgs) I could go on. Thank god for Judy Blume who I used to fantasise was my ‘real’ mother. I saved lunch money and birthday money to buy tampons which I used secretly as my periods were so heavy and it was only after my sister started her periods much later than me were the single pack of pads between 3 menstruating women put in the bathroom. I later found out my sister had her own supply left by my mother in her room. In the meantime, I was busily trying not to use too many from the shared packet and fashioned makeshift pads using cotton wool balls, sellotape and loo roll. And never had money for lunch. There was never any breakfast and my mother despite not working never got up to see we’d eaten before school. The house was dirty and a mess to the point where I couldn’t bring anyone home as I was too ashamed. Dinner was usually something manufactured by Findus. I feel tearful thinking about it now.

Whilst attitudes towards hair removal have changed since the 80’s it is recalling those awful moments in the changing rooms when you had hairy legs/one single grey hand-me-down ill fitting bra that drives the desire to shield your child from the same feelings. And here are the pluses of a shite childhood- I’ve been very open and honest with my DD about everything - sanitary protection options, sex education, puberty, relationships, nutrition. I’ve never broken a confidence. When I have a parenting dilemma I think ‘what would my M have done?’ And then I do the opposite. My daughter is loved, nurtured, happy, informed. I’ve showed her all of the options about personal hygiene, sanitary hygiene before she has had to ask. She has many, many well fitting bras . She eats fresh food, has her breakfast prepared for her, has a varied packed lunch/money for lunch and spends her birthday money on the sort of things a teenage girl should. Use your instincts OP and know your childhood was not normal.

@Futuremrsjohntaylor hugs to you, you are doing a great job!!

I think my parents were/are pretty brilliant in most ways but they did not really discuss any hygiene, puberty or sex matters at all, not really provide the things I needed like sanpro, bras etc.

DHs parents were the same with him and he is actually still quite similar - he is not open in discussing any bodily issues at all and is embarrassed easily.

I intend to be much more open and matter of fact with my kids and already have been. I'm dragging DH along with it but it doesn't come naturally.

There is a happy medium though - allowing children to raise things in their own time will make them more comfortable asking about things and hopefully make the conversation flow more naturally. My eldest is pretty curious and also very scientific so responds well when he asks questions about things and we answer very factually.

Sorry op, but your Mum was negligent and abusive towards you. She forced you to keep quiet about your needs by 'getting cross', denied you basic hygiene products, financially abused you by taking your earnings and didn't provide food for two of the three meals you needed each day.

She is gas-lighting you by pretending she has no idea you were suffering as a result of her abuse. She knows it just doesn't suit her to admit it.

I could have written your post. right down to using toilet paper as sanitary protection. My mother was abusive and neglectful in many ways, but the lack of any guidance as I went through puberty is one thing that really affected me and resulted in years of anxiety over hygiene and personal appearance. I only have boys but I speak to them (gently) about everything no matter how awkward because I figure it's easier coming from me than a school bully or crush

It really depends whether the issue is a hygeine issue like washing and deodorant or something which is arguably unnecessary like hair removal.

For example, I'd definitely speak with my child about hygeine and periods, sanitary products and deodorant, and provide these for her, but I would never approach her in her teens and tell her she needs to start shaving her legs!

@hawkehurstgang

For example, I'd definitely speak with my child about hygeine and periods, sanitary products and deodorant, and provide these for her, but I would never approach her in her teens and tell her she needs to start shaving her legs!

For me it's not a case of telling a child they need to start shaving their legs. They will get to an age when they know that some of their friends are shaving their legs. I'd rather let my children know that if they choose to shave their legs they can and I will get what they need and they can talk to me about it if they wish.

It's really shocking how many parents didn't provide sanitary products...it's absolute neglect. Same as not providing food and clothes imo. It causes so much anxiety for girls and can be so easily and cheaply sorted out. Just no excuse really. The thought of my dd in that situation breaks my heart

This thread has been interesting. As an adult I have brought up the lack of sanitary products/toiletries/clothes/bra/lunch money when I was child to my parents. They both told me I should have asked (and therefore it was my fault I didn't have them), but I didn't feel I could ask as I was constantly given the message we couldn't afford stuff (ironically I realise as an adult that my parents actually could have afforded it and were reasonably well off, but that wasn't the message I got).

So I've continued to have a niggling doubt that in fact the lack of things was my fault for not asking and my parents couldn't have been expected to realise. So this thread is useful in showing that actually, normal caring parents are alert to their child's basic needs.

I've also wondered how much of it was genuine ignorance on their part? For example, my mother never used deoderant (yes, she smells) and only washed her hair once a week, so I was expected to do likewise. Similarly she had light periods and used 5 pads for the duration of her period, whereas I had heavy ones and would get through 5 pads on the first day alone, but my mother refused to believe that I might need more than 5.

My shaving equipment and general toiletries were always around, and my DDs knew that they could use anything they needed, early on. Then later, when they were shopping with me in the supermarket or Boots, I'd simply ask them if they needed anything, and to add it to the basket if they did.
So no actual promotion of hair removal, but an openness to them using or buying what was required.

I don't think it's bad parenting, it's just different parenting, that's all.

Of course, if you've had issues with parental anger or poverty, it's not so straightforward.

Personally, I opted for the middle ground style of parenting.

When the kids were approaching the age they might need sanitary wear or deodorants/ razors etc, I put in a big bathroom cabinet and assigned them a shelf each. I would put the razors/ deodorants etc on 'their' shelf, along with anything else I thought they might need.
Then I just kept an eye on their shelves, and replenished what they'd used. I also asked them if there was anything they needed/wanted when I was going shopping.

It worked well for us.

I agree with others re: your parents not providing what you need. No child should have to go without sanitary protection, deodorant or being taught about personal hygiene.

From my POV, dd knew about periods from about age 9, carried spare pants and a couple of pads in her school bag from the beginning of year 5 just in case. As it was, she didn't start for about 18 months or so, but when it did there was no shock, she knew what to do and knew where the pads were that I had bought for her. Now, when I do an online shop I just ask her if she needs more.
And as puberty hit - she started to smell, and I did tell her she was a bit whiffy and to please get in the shower, use soap on her armpits and reminded her to wash her hair. Spots are starting and I do remind her that she needs to look after her skin, she has decent face wash and moisturer.
With regards to leg hair - she brought that up as one of her classmates was complaining about her own hairy legs. We've discussed whether she wants to remove it or not - not at the moment, because it's blond and not really visible, but I have told her to please tell me if that changes and asked her to please not use some random razor she finds in the house, as I'll buy her an electric one if she wants to remove the hair rather than slicing her self with a random old razor she finds in the shower, and been clear with her, she can do what she likes with regards to keeping or removing body hair.

I think the majority of parents know their children well enough to have the appropriate conversation - I had NO issue telling my dd that she was getting a bit stinky and it was because of puberty, because I didn't want other kids in her class telling her first.

It's really shocking how many parents didn't provide sanitary products...it's absolute neglect. Same as not providing food and clothes imo. It causes so much anxiety for girls and can be so easily and cheaply sorted out. Just no excuse really. The thought of my dd in that situation breaks my heart

This sounds a bit spoilt but I remember that (mid- late 1990s) Always was far more expensive but more discrete than most other brands. I used to feel bad to ask my mum to buy the most expensive ones but when the fashion was leggings and cycling shorts the other brands were uncomfortable and more obvious but the village shop only really had bulky traditional type of sanpro or tampax (which my mum was very against me trying because of TSS , even though she used tampons herself!)

I wouldn't call my mother neglectful but she was really hung up about periods and it caused me a lot of problems. I became quite angry in my 30s when I realised the untreated endometriosis that made me infertile probably started in my teens. I was in significant pain every month, had flooding and I don't remember being offered painkillers even. She once shouted at me because I bled on the sheets at her mother's house (as though I'd done it deliberately!) I can't imagine leaving my own DD without painkillers or making her worry about e.g. whether she'd have enough products to last a holiday.

I still have a bit of an issue with white sheets and clothes.

My DD is 8 and I've been researching and am really impressed by what's on the market, from period pants to period proof swimwear and books with practical illustrations and suggestions. I have learnt quite a bit from The Autistic Guide to Periods .

Thank you to everyone who has responded - it's given me some real food for thought.
To be completely clear, as an adult, I'm 100% certain DM would have bought these things if I had asked her. I genuinely believed she chalked it up to things like me not wanting to eat until later in the day or perhaps only having light periods or genuinely just not realising what I was going through or feeling. Looking back, I know she'd have made all of these things available to me if I'd brought it up - but at the time I was so, so, so scared of bringing it up. We're close now and DM thinks we always were, she honestly believes that - so I really do worry about the children of women like my DM who honestly, truthfully, completely and totally believe that their DC will approach them when their DC's perspective is very different.
From my perspective (which is, of course, just my perspective), the harm of not bringing it up and not being pro-active is far greater than the harm of bringing it up.

I also felt uncomfortable to ask at first, so i also used blunt razors on toilet paper. I borrowed her deodorant. Not forever, but for a year or two when I felt mature enough to ask.
I don't have daughters, but I'd make sure that such things are in the house to help yourself when needed.

I totally agree with you OP. My mum would say exactly the same, that we’ve always been close etc and that I could talk to her about anything. But it wasn’t true from my side. I used to wish so much that she’d bring things up and be proactive. I remember sitting for ages one day when I was about 12 trying to psych myself up to tell her I wanted to remove body hair and ask for a razor and her to show me how, but I chickened out and just nicked hers instead until I was old enough to buy my own. I used to cringe asking for more Sanpro or a new bra. I remember being laughed at it in changing rooms when I was 12/13 because I still had a ‘babyish’ crop top and the other girls had bras. My mum never asked me if I wanted one or initiated the chat. But like your mum she 100% would have bought these things if I’d ask, I was just too embarrassed to ask. It was the same when it came to talking about boyfriends / sex / contraception when I got older. She thought I’d just talk to her about it if I wanted to, but I was too embarrassed to broach it. I wish she’d made the conversation more open and easier and asked me things. It just all felt too daunting to approach her with an embarrassing thing to discuss, so I didn’t.

On another note referring to one of the PP’s further up the thread, why not change a tampon in front of your child?! I only use pads but if the kids are in the bathroom with me then they see it. So what? It’s a normal bodily function and I don’t want them to think it’s something to be ashamed of that must be hidden. I’m sure as they get older they’ll stop following me to the toilet but while they do then they’ll see what happens in the toilet!