to think "I'll wait for them to ask" is bad parenting?

[SesameOrangutan]

There's a thread I've just seen where a parent has said they're contemplating asking their DC whether they want something that they really should've had a long time ago but that they don't want to offer it to them because they want the DC to come to them and ask for it of their own volition.
I've had friends with this too - like a friend whose DD had hairy legs and she was waiting for her daughter to bring it up and ask about hair removal instead of her mentioning it. A lot of children/teens really smell bad but their parents are waiting for them to bring up wearing deodorant (which they won't until it's too late because they won't know they smell until someone else points it out).
When I was a child/teen, we grew up without much money and I never felt like I could ask for anything. DM seemed completely oblivious that things I needed weren't being provided for and, because she had a temper, I never felt comfortable asking for anything or bringing anything up myself. DM would never, ever see my childhood that way and genuinely believes we had a very close relationship. My wages from my part-time job went directly into her account. I never had sanitary products because I couldn't ask my mum for them so I used toilet roll instead (which doesn't work btw), I used to shave my legs/armpits at friends houses in their bathrooms when I asked to use the toilet, I didn't eat breakfast or lunch (my mum ate at work and it didn't seem to occur to her that there was nothing at home for breakfast/lunch).
I wonder how many well meaning parents are putting all the responsibility on their children to ask for basic things that they need - and how many children are too scared, embarrassed or naive to ask for it. AIBU to think that a major part of being a parent is pro-actively providing for your child or asking about their needs instead of always sitting and waiting for instructions from a child on what they need?

*wouldnt put hair removal in same category!!

I have always shaved my armpits and legs as has my Mother, if girls see that their Mum does then it's logical that they might want to. It's a bit mixed message to shave yourself but not discuss it with your DD or tell them there's no need to.

I dont remember my mum shaving her legs or armpits but I think she did. I asked if I could shave my legs when I was 12 and she showed me what to do (admittedly I had much darker hair so was much more noticeable than hers)
She never spoke to me about dealing with my bikini line though and I'm sure there were a lot of strays when wearing the dreaded pe pants or swimming costume as teen

The parent should always provide the necessary proactively. We bought DS deodorant as soon as needed. Why wait and let them smell?!

My DD is 7, but when she is older I won't ever bring up hair removal, I will wait for her to come to me, but we have already had a conversation about puberty and body hair, she has seen me shave my legs and seen me shave my armpits which is what prompted the conversation. She has never seen me do my bikini line, but I have made flippant comments in front of here such as I'd better shave my bikini line if we are going swimming tomorrow etc. Same with sanitary products, she has seen mine about and walked in the bathroom whilst I have been changing them. I have always been open and honest with her so she doesn't think it is anything to be ashamed of or hide.
My mum was the complete opposite to yours OP, I started shaving my legs when I was 10 because my mum pointed out my hairy legs, she would always make comments about my hair (I have really thick curly hair that bushes out when I brush it), one of her favourites when we were shopping g was to tell me not to get something as it made me look fat or made my bum look big, I look back on photos of me at that time and I wish I was that thin again (size 10 tops and 12 trousers). I refuse to do that to my DD.

DD mentioned her armpit hair and complained about it, so offered to remove it. She said no.
A year later she asked me to shave it off, so I did. Now she asks occasionally for me to do it.

She’s also complained about her leg hair and was quite keen to get rid and I’ve just said I’ll shave it if you want. But hasn’t wanted to so we’ve left it.

I don’t think it’s a big deal.

If Mumsnet existed in 1993 my mum would be on here saying 'I won't mention it until the child mentions it to me as I don't want her to feel that she 'has' to shave it off'. I couldn't ever mention it as I know she'd be disappointed in me and my conforming ways. She'd also tell Mumsnet that she left tampons in the bathroom for me and my sister to use- she just didn't tell me that so I daren't use them because I thought they were just hers and I'd get into trouble so I also used tissue and occasionally stole money from her to buy sanitary towels.

I would rather let my children know that some people choose to shave/ remove hair and if they wish to go down that road they can talk to me if they wish. If they choose to sort it themselves then that's ok but I'm here if they want.

but YABU to equate shaving legs with all that. It's unnecessary, it's a stupid sexist societal standard and I wouldn't be encouraging my kids (if I had them) to do it. That is one thing I'd not mention, and if they decided to shave of their own volition then so be it.

Just make sure there are no rusty orange bic razors in the house then or there will be butchered legs.

@WildWestWanda no but if I was talking to my DD about puberty and body hair she might ask why my legs and armpits aren’t hairy (as I generally shave them). That would open a conversation about body hair and choices and that some people shave/wax/leave it naturally etc and that she can do whatever she chooses and feels comfortable with. I will not be saying as soon as you get body hair removed it 🙄. But as PP have said if you don’t raise it they will attack their legs with a blunt bic and hurt themselves. I’d rather know what she was doing and support her choices. Pretending that a significant amount of women don’t remove body hair isnt helpful.

If Mumsnet existed in 1993 my mum would be on here saying 'I won't mention it until the child mentions it to me as I don't want her to feel that she 'has' to shave it off'. I couldn't ever mention it as I know she'd be disappointed in me and my conforming ways. She'd also tell Mumsnet that she left tampons in the bathroom for me and my sister to use- she just didn't tell me that so I daren't use them because I thought they were just hers and I'd get into trouble so I also used tissue and occasionally stole money from her to buy sanitary towels

Dd knows I won't be disappointed if she wants to shave as I shave myself and she sees me regularly and the razors are there. I haven't mentioned it lately but a couple of years ago a boy had mentioned I her about her her hairy (but amazing natural shape) eyebrows so we had a body hair chat then.

I very much doubt she'd be worried about taking anything from the cupboard though as she doesn't care about taking my make up, make up bags, expensive creams and perfumes, my good socks and favourite hoodies. We've obviously had the period chat as well and I hope she'd tell me but the stuff is there and I doubt she'd be afraid to use it if she wasn't ready for whatever reason

I think within a healthy relationship where all necessities are provided and puberty and sex is discussed as a normal part of healthy growth it is absolutely fine for a parent to not encourage practices that they fundamentally disagree with like female shaving or getting a mobile or accessing various forms of social media or buying presents for teachers or fast fashion etc etc. I think the OP (and some PPs) grew up in a very neglectful environment and are therefore mixing the very harmful things their parents did (like not providing sanitary protection and taking their DCs money) with things that even good parents choose to not raise (like leg shaving) because they disagree with the strict gender roles that exist in our society. In my experience my teenage DC are more than happy to present a strong case for things they know DH and I don't want to do (DD2 cornered DH this afternoon to press the case for a puppy, something we've historically refused to do because we WOTH and it's cruel to leave a dog alone all day but now DH is expecting to WFH forever that reason has gone. Of course the DC will leave home long before a dog will die). I (almost) wish I hadn't raised children that weren't so opinionated and argumentative, it would make life a lot easier! But I have children who know they are very loved, have their basic needs more than met (we have a very high income and they have everything they need and most things they want), and they feel secure enough to disagree with me and DH on a regular basis.

Iv got boys but we have had discussions around yr5 onwards about hygiene, showering deodorant. When they get older they will get hairy. They have asked my why I epilate my legs and shave my underarms, I told them I prefer it but it's a personal choice for each girl/lady and shouldn't judge anyone by it. We have also discussed periods and how to be supportive and how might girls feel physically. I'm trying to raise emotionally education boys

Not providing basic care, like food and hygiene products, is neglect. Hair removal doesn’t come under that bracket, but I will still bring it up at some point with my kids. Because why wouldn’t I? Seeing as hair removal is common and my daughter will probably be interested in it. It’s a good opportunity to talk about cultural norms or societal beauty expectations.

Pps have said this, but everyone seems to be focussing on hair removal/contraception.

I think the op is about 2 different things.

One is around neglect - OP's neglectful childhood.
This is abuse.

Parental decisions about waiting for dc to ask are different. Sometimes that's good parenting Sometimes not. My dd prefers to look at me with her eyes and hope I'll make everything right. I want her to use her words, so I don't always rush to solve her problems

who the heck ever finds it normal to change a tampon in front of their children?

Have you never been out of the house and had to change a tampon when shopping with a very small child who has to come into the toilet cubicle with you? My youngest is 8 and I've definitely changed a tampon in front of all the DC at some point but not for a few years.

She never spoke to me about dealing with my bikini line though and I'm sure there were a lot of strays when wearing the dreaded pe pants or swimming costume as teen

How old are you? Pre the mid 90s (SATC to be precise) shaving the bikini line was not a big thing, I am 50 and have never shaved mine despite swimming several times a week and DM didn't either. Threads on shaving pubic hair on here are split between those who never would think to do it and those who think it's unhygenic to not do it. So what do you tell a teenager? I don't remove pubic or armpit hair and only shave my legs once a fortnight in the summer. Or me that's enough but a colleague called me a goat when I told her I didn't shave my legs in the winter. Who is right? Reminds me of my mum buying me deodorant for my vulva, something that is not fashionable now but very much was back in the 70s. I remember the problem pages of Jackie in the 80s regularly saying 'your vagina is self cleaning, don't use feminine hydiene products'. So we should be aware that fashion changes and while some things (brushing teeth) is necessary for health others (hair removal) are not.

Personal hygiene is definitely one to proactively teach, in a gentle kind of way of course, I’d never say to my DC’s that I think they smell or it’s surely time they used deodorant. Shaving legs is slightly different. I have never brought this up with my dd but she’s an avid leg shaver all the same and this must come from her friends group or peer pressure in the PE changing room and it’s fine. Also, even as teens they are still watching you so if your hygiene is good, then good chance theirs will be.

@ComDummings

I totally agree. It’s lazy. Children often won’t ask for things. If a parent is uncomfortable and avoiding bringing something up then you can almost guarantee the child feels exactly the same. I read on a Facebook group a parent hadn’t discussed periods with their daughter. She started at 9 and had no idea what it was. How terrifying must that have been for that child just because the parents were waiting due to their own discomfort. Awful parenting.

I agree. My parents never discussed puberty, periods, friendships/ relationships, money/ budgeting, mental health, anything like that with me. Not once. And I had undiagnosed autism. So that was fun, working it all out on my own!

That sounds like you had a miserable time OP. DD is 10, I have recently cleared a drawer for her in the bathroom and put in facial wash, toner, moisturiser, razors and deodorant. I've just to her to help herself to whatever she wants and she has used everything. I will stock her up on pads/tampons when the time comes. I can't imagine not doing, I wouldn't do without those things so wouldn't expect her to.

@NothingEverChangesButTheShoes

I had a mother very like yours. I was also the smelly girl with hardly any lunch money, no deodorant or sanitary ware. I used to use my dad's razor and deodorant if I could get to it and the same with my mum's tampax. We didn't have much money so I think my parents shared a can of deodorant. I didn't even have a bra until age 16 my auntie insisted. I had to keep my jumper on at school. I've decided with my daughter, not to wait until asked but discuss as and when. I'd have loved to have the right stuff just appear in my room so I'm planning that.

@NothingEverChangesButTheShoes interested to read that. DD is at the stage of almost needing a crop/training bra and I wasn't sure when to mention it to her but I've put a supply of asda first bras (they're in age size so I knew what size to get) and also crop tops in her drawer so they're there ready for her. I wonder if I should say or just leave her to start using them 🤔 I talked to her about using deodorant, and about skincare and periods and she has supplies of everything ready to use.

@GlitterBlue - definitely say something! Just putting in them in her drawer without a word suggests that you don't want to talk about them (rather like my mother and periods). Plus you can't be sure that an age size will be the right size. Once she started developing I found DD needed a bigger size in tops.

Similar experiences- mother had a hysterectomy young so didn’t have periods and seemed to have forgotten all about them/ products etc and was very much a taboo subject- was handed a book one day ( the always ones that used to hand our in school) and told you read that I’m going out for a walk and when you come back we won’t talk about it again. Shocking .. imagine my horror when I got my period a month later and I was only 10. I was so full of shame and embarrassment as clearly this was a terrible thing to happen if we weren’t allowed to talk about it. Eventually I told her after using toilet roll and My mother went and bought what’s he thought were pads but were liners/ wee slim liners. Was so uncomfortable to being up to ask for others etc- would have loved these just to appear. Got my first part timejob at 11 washing dishes and had my own money and from then bought all my own sanitary items, clothes etc from them on.
Have vowed would never have this relationship/ attitude with my children - sounds like you are attune to this too .
Again never ever one Word spoken about sex/ contraceptives and I had a boyfriend from 17 who like alone. Thankfully I did know about all these things but would have been such a different relationship had I been able to talk in some way about periods, sex, hair removal etc .
So I am definitely one for being up the topics early, casually etc and trying to keep narrative open. My children were taught factual body part names from young age too which my mother is horrified about. You sound like you are doing a great job!

@Glitterblue I am planning on buying them with a couple of tops and telling DD that I got her some new clothes and they are in her room. I'm not sure what to do when she has to be measured. I don't want her to grow up!

Looking back at this thread, it surprises me how many women went through the same things. At least we can make it less unpleasant for our children.

My mum was the same. She was (and still is) very uncomfortable discussing things like periods, sex, relationships etc. The birds + the bees talk for me was her telling me if I ever got pregnant as a teen she'd throw me out.
When I started my periods I was too embarrassed to say anything so used loo roll. A pack of sanitary towels appeared in the wardrobe but I didn't use them. I then got an absolute bollocking for hiding that I'd started my periods
I'll do everything I can to stop my daughter feeling too embarrassed to talk to me about anything.
Funnily enough my mum would say same as yours op, that we were very close and could talk about anything....

I realise you have suffered a neglectful parent, I have done and it's awful place to be. But you should not be so ridiculous as to include something as brutal and completely unnecessary/ for the sake of vanity as shaving in the same vein as ignoring food needs.

I’ve seen a thread on here where a mother was worried about her daughter’s skin- from the sound of things her daughter had widespread, cystic acne but she and her mum hadn’t talked about it and her daughter was generally reluctant to discuss any personal/bodily matters.

Some posters were saying that the OP was projecting her own issues on her child, who if she hadn’t mentioned it, probably didn’t care. Others were pointing out that some exquisitely self-conscious children may have struggled to communicate about personal issues, in spite of receptive parents.

That’s what I think this thread is about - not body hair necessarily- but actively letting your child know about options for things that might/will be on the future - breast, body odour, acne, periods and/or having discussions around those issues when they turn up.

There was a poster on the acne thread who said her mother treated her teenage skin problems pragmatically, like a medical problem which I thought was a good approach. When DD2’s skin became more inflamed than just a few spots we had a text discussion about it because she would have been mortified by a face-to-face one and now, 6 weeks into tretinoin things are so much better. She was self-conscious about her skin but was too embarrassed to talk about it.

With regard to hair removal I have bought them razors, told them it’s fine whatever they do. The teenage DDs swim so if they decided to not remove it would be obvious and I wanted to make sure it was an active choice.