To think table manners are on the decline

[RankManners]

inspired by current thread on table manners...
I work in a primary school and am shocked by the lack of table manners. Thinking that year 3 or 4 (age 8/9) is a suitable age to be able to use cutlery properly, I'd say about 2 children in each class do this. I'm talking eating sweetcorn (and pretty much everything) with fingers, putting a chicken breast on a fork and eating it like a lolly, eating a jacket potato by scraping the insides off on bottom teeth etc.

Similarly in a restaurant, you'll see parents with decent table manners and then kids eating like animals - how can parents not notice this??

(I'm your average WC parent, nothing posh here, but was bought up with standards!)
So AIBU it's the way things are going
YANBU manners separate us from animals

Like most things, there's a balance to be had. Eating with your mouth open or with fingers is obviously to be discouraged. Holding your fork the right way up, meh. So many people get this 'wrong', even adults. If I got worked up about it, I would be worked up a lot.

My 3yo prefers cutlery as he hates touching food. My 6yo preferred to eat with her fingers. We did baby led weaning with her, so think that might be what did it!

My children know how to eat properly but if I don't keep an eye on them their table manners slide at the dinner table. I wonder how many kids eat properly at home under their parents beady eyes and like they've been dragged up at school.

I would be interested to hear from teachers how much leeway you have these days to correct children's table manners or whether this is a big no-no.

I'm a TA and do the lunch supervision. The teachers are on their lunch break. Mine are primary 1 so 4-5-6 moving through the year. I have 1 full class to supervise on my own (and the the 2 other classes often ask me for things) hand out meals, fruit course, treat course and drinks (covid means they need to have them served while the dc sit). Some have school lunches and others a variety of packed lunches. I have a 1:1 who is a runner and a dc in one of the other classes who's food intake I need to monitor closely and sometimes do calculations for. I don't allow the dc to get up and walk or run around. I do not allow shouting and they always tidy up after themselves. Any major silliness like food throwing would be spotted and corrected but I honestly could not tell you who is eating sweetcorn with their hands or like a lollipop, if they are chewing with their mouths open etc as I only have one set of eyes

I absolutely agree. All my fiends could be described as professional middle class people and the majority of them cannot hold cutlery properly.

Sometimes my kids do this just to wind me up - because when they're at grandparents they turn into Victorian diners using all the cutlery impeccably and sitting straight, waiting their turn to speak etc

So I try to remember that they DO know

But try and ignore it sometimes or react less and just tell them that there's a new checkpoint in town for police to check homes where kids are using cutlery properly or not.

Usually works

I've never met an adult who can't passably use a knife and fork (like maybe in the right hands or not posh table manners, but good enough). I've met many adults who can't read and write, but none who hadn't picked up basic table manners.

Problem is that meal times at school are just a feeding frenzy. There are not enough adults to supervise. Most schools have limited space so children often get 20 minutes for lunch, and that includes queuing up.
All my dcs left nursery with wonderful table manners. It all started to go downhill once they started school dinners. Even just slowing them down to not wolf down their food is a battle.
Such an important part of development, enjoying and appreciating food, and completely disregarded in most schools.
And don’t even get me started on the unbelievable quantities of food thrown away at each sitting. Most children take a few bites then shove it all in a big bin so they can get more playtime outside.
I avoid the canteen as much as possible

I've always thought that the important part of development that is enjoying and appreciating food is the province of the parents and home.

Possibly that's because we didn't have school dinners in NZ, we sent them with a packed lunch, they ate them cross legged outside, and then buggered off as fast as possible to play.

Children’s hands are still growing. Adult cutlery is too big for them.
Using cutlery actually involves quite a lot of dexterity and different skills. Cutting requires strength. These things take time.
Chairs are often too big too especially in restaurants so their bodies aren’t supported in a normal seated position. Once teetering on knees they become more manic with eating
Also as well as having fewer opportunities to eat with family because of work, During the last year or so children haven’t had the chance at school. My own children can’t eat in the hall so eat in their classrooms and the tv is on - we never eat in front of the tv but I know they are doing their best.
I think it doesn’t matter that much tbh. They will get there in the end.

I've never met an adult who can't passably use a knife and fork

Oh gosh, I have! Not even talking about right or left hand, but some people have shocking habits.

It looks so much more difficult to eat anyway, it really does not make sense but there are some extreme.

@kindaclassy

mine have always been taught to clear it

mine are taught not to pile their plate up with ridiculous amounts of food, and to finish what they put when they help themselves,

but if someone else is plating up for them, they absolutely do not have to finish.

I think she meant take it over towards the sink/dishwasher area.

I think she meant take it over towards the sink/dishwasher area.

You are correct!

But I still wouldn't expect young primary school children to bring back their plates and everything back to the kitchen when they are visiting my kids, find the bin, scrap the food, open the dishwasher...
They can take back one item and go back and play!

This is one of the "softer" reasons we elected for private education - sloppy manners were not tolerated by the school which backed up the "at home" training.

I was brought up in the West and have lived in both East and South Asia.

I can use chopsticks, and a spoon and chopsticks (Korean-style) very well - not so good at using my right hand without cutlery, but I can pass tolerably well without embarrassing myself in company!

Interestingly, it's very rare to see EA/SA children above a certain age (three-ish) be unable to use the eating implements common to their respective cultures, in the way that Western children seem unable to use a knife and fork at 10.

DS always eats at the table, we always do when we're eating with him (Tuesday football was on he'd had dinner at nursery so we had pizza in the living room when he was in bed).
A farm park local ish to us posted this that with a request for families to clear away after themselves, if children learn this is acceptable it's no wonder they won't eat nicely at a table.

I really value good table manners and I agree with you OP it's shocking how many children cannot eat properly. I always feel for the pupils that can and do but have to sit opposite pupils who can't
I couldn't do it but we expect them to

I am old. I never remember my parents teaching me table manners or even mentioning it. We ate every meal, breakfast, lunch ( when not in school) and dinner at the table. We just copied our parents. The table was set properly each time and we lingered over evening meals. But my dm was a SAHP with time for all this.
Same here as my kids were growing. We ate every meal together and l genuinely don't ever remember speaking about manners. They just did it right from the start. No school dinners in lreland so all eating was with family.
Now parents are running in, everyone is hungry and it's not as easy. A lot of families don't eat together. Or eat in front of TV. If they eat out it's children's meals that lend themselves to finger food. It's an extra strain in busy lives fussing over table manners

I think fewer children sit around the table for a family meal.

They very often sit on their own with tray in front of the TV.

I teach in a primary school in a middle class area; the table manners of our children are appalling.

My husband is an absolute stickler for table manners, no elbows on the table, etc and cannot abide poor table behaviour from our kids. What they're like at school though is anybody's guess!

Children’s hands are still growing. Adult cutlery is too big for them

You can buy childrens' size ordinary cutlery.

www.lakeland.co.uk/62306/4pc-Viners-Stainless-Steel-Children%E2%80%99s-Cutlery-Set-?

Catering packs kiddie sized www.nisbets.co.uk/tableware-and-bar-supplies/cutlery/olympia-cutlery/kelso-180-plain-cutlery/_/a33-4?

Personalised child's cutlery set www.studio.co.uk/shop/gifts---jewellery/gifts-personalised/personalised-kids-gifts/gifts-personalised-kids-bedroom/personalised-animal-cutlery-set-v2-88396479?

Meh... I couldn't get worked up about this 🤷‍♀️ they'll learn soon enough through being a human in this world. No adult I know eats sweetcorn with their hands.

It's tough teaching kids table manners. A necessary part of their upbringing though.

God sorry to say but my 9 year old has appalling table manners despite my best efforts he would absolutely eat food on his fork with no attempt to cut with a knife.

@memberofthewedding

When I was a child of 9 I was expected to use a knife and fork properly and to use proper manners at the table. There were no smart phones then but TV was turned off, and no reading at the table. No elbows on the table and no talking with a full mouth. When we had finished my sister and I had to ask permission to leave the table. By that age I automatically took my own plate and that of my parents into the kitchen to begin the washing up. It was one of my "jobs" to earn my pocket money.

Sis is that you? If you had mentioned trying a little bit of everything offered You’d have described it perfectly. This was meals in my house growing up too. Table manners was one of my mum’s hot buttons. That’s not to say I was always perfect, but let’s just say I was never allowed to use my fingers inappropriately, not use a napkin, and hold and use my cutlery correctly*

I’m sure at 9 I was still being corrected by her, but only occasionally. I have faith in this as she was not especially patient or tolerant, and I grew up in the time when corporal punishment was the norm. So I’m pretty sure I would remember the consequences of not having good table manners.

*I did win the battle of the fork though. Hard to describe but I found one way more comfortable than the ‘correct’ way and it’s only slightly different than the ‘correct’ way so she gave up and let me have that one.

I've yanbued despite my youngest eating like this. She has special needs but it's not that she doesn't know how to eat things properly but sometimes it's the lesser of whatever evils. Makes me cringe.