To think table manners are on the decline

[RankManners]

inspired by current thread on table manners...
I work in a primary school and am shocked by the lack of table manners. Thinking that year 3 or 4 (age 8/9) is a suitable age to be able to use cutlery properly, I'd say about 2 children in each class do this. I'm talking eating sweetcorn (and pretty much everything) with fingers, putting a chicken breast on a fork and eating it like a lolly, eating a jacket potato by scraping the insides off on bottom teeth etc.

Similarly in a restaurant, you'll see parents with decent table manners and then kids eating like animals - how can parents not notice this??

(I'm your average WC parent, nothing posh here, but was bought up with standards!)
So AIBU it's the way things are going
YANBU manners separate us from animals

It depends on what you mean by tablemanners, they very much vary by culture, school lunches are also very rushed so children will likely use the fastest method. Plus we know lots of children will only behave ‘properly’ if they know there is an adult who will correct them there and then.

My son has decent table manners, he eats with his left hand (he is a lefty) and generally remembers to not speak with food in his mouth and to actually swallow before he takes a second mouthful.

When we eat at home or with me he eats fairly nicely, he knows he won’t get away with using two hands, or wiping his hand on his clothes. If I’m not there all rules go out the window, he goes for whatever method gets the food in fast enough.

I found mine got worse when they hit their teens! But they know the limit. No screens when anyone is eating the main meal, or at a table, no eating with their mouth open, talking with their mouth full, and if I see a fork being used as a lollipop stick, God help them. Misusing a knife is punishable by the look of death.

When I was a child of 9 I was expected to use a knife and fork properly and to use proper manners at the table. There were no smart phones then but TV was turned off, and no reading at the table. No elbows on the table and no talking with a full mouth. When we had finished my sister and I had to ask permission to leave the table. By that age I automatically took my own plate and that of my parents into the kitchen to begin the washing up. It was one of my "jobs" to earn my pocket money.

like @GravityFalls our 10 year old is always reminded about table manners, eating properly etc. we wat most meals as a family and our 12 and 14 year olds manage to eat civily but the 10 year old is postively feral. if we didnt constantly go on at him I'm pretty sure he would just put his face in the plate and eat like a dog!!
I think at school where they dont have parents watching and nagging they just eat however.

I mean im sure even the poshest, most impeccably mannered of us has sat on the sofa and used our fingers or licked a bowl when no-one else is watching!!

*mine have always been taught to clear it

mine are taught not to pile their plate up with ridiculous amounts of food, and to finish what they put when they help themselves,

but if someone else is plating up for them, they absolutely do not have to finish.*

I don't mean clear as in eat all the food off their plate, I mean clear as in take their plate to the side and ideally put any scraps into the food waste and stick it in the dishwasher. Or at the very least take it from the table to the side.

@memberofthewedding

When I was a child of 9 I was expected to use a knife and fork properly and to use proper manners at the table. There were no smart phones then but TV was turned off, and no reading at the table. No elbows on the table and no talking with a full mouth. When we had finished my sister and I had to ask permission to leave the table. By that age I automatically took my own plate and that of my parents into the kitchen to begin the washing up. It was one of my "jobs" to earn my pocket money.

I love it when people describe how well-behaved they themselves were as a child as if it's objective fact. I bet if you asked any of the children OP describes if they eat nicely, if their parents are strict and if they have lots of rules they have to follow the vast majority would say yes. Give it 50 years and those children will be going on about how much better raised they were than the 9 year olds of 2071...

@BlankTimes I have a son who's autistic and also has dyspraxia - we've tried all the things you've mentioned, and more, as recommended by our OT.

My son is now 11 and still struggles to cut anything up. He also still struggles to get the food from plate to mouth. The end result is that mealtimes are incredibly hard work and frustrating for him and he'll just give up because it's too exhausting. I'm fairly relaxed about how he eats at home, I don't enforce cutlery use any more. He's so skinny and scrawny, I don't want him missing out on much-needed nutrition just because it's such hard work to eat. That's not fair. Generally he'll start off using his cutlery and end up reverting to fingers as he gets tired and annoyed with trying.

He knows what table manners are expected in restaurants etc.

I'm not trying to put anyone off trying these things as they have absolutely helped us to make progress. Caring Cutlery and non-slip plates/cups helped a lot especially. But they're not a complete solution by any means when you've got an exhausted child who has to work very, very hard just to get the food successfully to their mouth.

I don't mean clear as in eat all the food off their plate, I mean clear as in take their plate to the side and ideally put any scraps into the food waste and stick it in the dishwasher. Or at the very least take it from the table to the side.

That's for your own house! you don't do that as a guest. It might not be rude, but in most houses it would be more than inconvenient if children started doing that when they are invited around.

It's bad enough when adults pretend to "help" that way.

DS1 14 doesn't have great table manners a lot of the time at home.

He is dyspraxic and it takes a lot more time and effort to eat well with a knife and fork.

He is very conscious of this though and if there was anyone but us there, or he was outside the house, he would make the effort, as he would be embarrassed not to.

He would always choose finger food over food that requires cutlery, so his preference would be burger, hot dog, pizza (vege versions).

At home I don't police his table manners. He knows how to do it properly but it's a lot more effort for him.

@undermycatsthumb

*mine have always been taught to clear it

mine are taught not to pile their plate up with ridiculous amounts of food, and to finish what they put when they help themselves,

but if someone else is plating up for them, they absolutely do not have to finish.*

I don't mean clear as in eat all the food off their plate, I mean clear as in take their plate to the side and ideally put any scraps into the food waste and stick it in the dishwasher. Or at the very least take it from the table to the side.

I wouldn't do that in someone else's house (though I would ask if I could help clear up) - you don't know where anything goes! I'd actually think it quite odd if a guest just took themselves off and put their plate in my dishwasher, and I do think it's a lot to expect of a child. Are you sure yours do it at their friend's houses?

I often joke with my 11 year old that he eats like a barbarian! He tells me to chill out, he knows how to eat properly and will do it when we eat out. Cheeky bugger! He was telling me the other day about the bad table manners of the other kids at school, so maybe he's not so bad.

My parents were Victorian about table manners when I was growing up. It was incredibly stressful. The only main rule I have is no screens at the table. Oh and don't lick your plate when I'm watching

I wouldn't do that in someone else's house (though I would ask if I could help clear up) - you don't know where anything goes! I'd actually think it quite odd if a guest just took themselves off and put their plate in my dishwasher, and I do think it's a lot to expect of a child. Are you sure yours do it at their friend's houses?

Yes because it gets favourably commented on! I obviously wouldn't expect visiting kids to be loading the dishwasher etc but just taking their plates to the side. Maybe my friends and I are unusual, but we all help clear at whoever's house, and when I have their kids over (as in my friends' kids) they all do the same. But it sounds like that isn't typical!

@ExhaustedFlamingo

My now adult DD has those conditions plus many more co-morbids, some of which directly affect eating like jaw (and other joints) hypermobility and intention tremor) I still cut her food up into small pieces before I give it to her and she still takes a very long time to eat.

In restaurants, we sit side by side, swap plates while I cut hers up then swap back.

I know how hard it is, but some of the aids do help, I agree, they don't form a perfect solution, but they do help.
Your son sounds lovely, like me, you'll do what you can to encourage him, but remember what he can achieve within his capabilities and don't push for the impossible.

But it sounds like that isn't typical!

Thank god for that! The last thing anyone need is children "helping' clearing out. It's such a pain when adults do it already.

A simple "can I help you?" is more than enough, they can bring ONE safe item and disappear, and everybody is happy.

Perhaps the parents do realise and the children are rebelling against strict rules at home when they're able to at school?
A lot of child nutritionists say not to make table manners a big deal, just model what's appropriate and they will follow.

My parents were really strict with me and I hated eating with them, they were constantly moaning at me for things I couldn't really help or didn't really care about - how is it bad manners to have your knife and fork in the "wrong" hands, or to eat off a (not sharp) knife? It's just a way for parents to exert control.

My 2yo uses a fork and spoon when she feels like it which is more often than not at the moment and she's started trying to copy us with a knife. But I'm not going to force it.

We were in a cafe. At the table next to us two men, mid twenties, were already eating. When they'd finished they started a fairly loud conversation, and one of them was bemoaning the fact that he'd take a girl out for a meal and then she never wanted to see him again and he didn't know why. I soooo much wanted to lean over and say 'Mate, I've just seen you eating. I know why there's no second date.'

My friend at university was always banging on about table manners and criticising everyone else about them. Her mother did a wonderful job on her table manners. Unfortunately, she had bad personal hygiene and stole stuff. Nobody’s perfect.

Skral

Pigeonpocket my parents were the same. It was beyond stressful. A hell of a lot of anxiety was created around mealtimes and I ended up with an eating disorder. It wasn't all down to their rules, but it was a contributing factor.

Many people have appalling table manners. On TV people are shown talking with mouths full, irons used as spears etc.. In a diet food ad yesterday the woman held her irons halfway down, pointed with them and didn't put them down at all. Revolting.

I hope my son uses the table manners that he's been taught throughout his life, but to be honest as long as he's not a twat I'll be happy. Being a decent person with questionable table manners is better than the other way around. Hoping for both, but as Skral said, "nobody's perfect."

but to be honest as long as he's not a twat I'll be happy.

I never understand how that is remotely relevant. It's 2 completely different and unrelated things.

It sounds like some people (speaking in general, not a specific poster) are either trying to find excuse or reason to smirk at the concept of manners.

I see manners the same way as I see reading. It's a skill you master, it should be basic, it doesn't have any effect on your personality or anything.

I see manners the same way as I see reading. It's a skill you master, it should be basic, it doesn't have any effect on your personality or anything.

They're not remotely the same. Reading is beneficial to the person doing it. Table manners are for the people around you. And most of them are completely arbitrary.

Not talking with your mouth full, not making a mess and not making loud noises are probably the only rules I really agree with - it's good to learn so you don't disgust other people, spray food everywhere, etc.

Having the knife and fork in the "correct" hand, no elbows on the table, using the "correct" implement for things, not using your fingers for non-messy foods etc. have no reason to exist other than that's how people in the past have decided that things should be done. They are culturally specific as well. People only get annoyed by them because they can't stand people who don't follow "rules" or because they like to exert control.

It never take long before we get a post explaining why manners are wrong

No @Pigeonpocket table manners are also beneficial for the person involved. Grossing other people out when you eat is not a ticket to social success. I dont care which hand people hold their knife and fork but even in (especially in actually) cultures where eating with your fingers is common there are rules.