To think table manners are on the decline

[RankManners]

inspired by current thread on table manners...
I work in a primary school and am shocked by the lack of table manners. Thinking that year 3 or 4 (age 8/9) is a suitable age to be able to use cutlery properly, I'd say about 2 children in each class do this. I'm talking eating sweetcorn (and pretty much everything) with fingers, putting a chicken breast on a fork and eating it like a lolly, eating a jacket potato by scraping the insides off on bottom teeth etc.

Similarly in a restaurant, you'll see parents with decent table manners and then kids eating like animals - how can parents not notice this??

(I'm your average WC parent, nothing posh here, but was bought up with standards!)
So AIBU it's the way things are going
YANBU manners separate us from animals

kindaclassy you sound fun.

Manners and reading are not comparable. It's very hard to get through life without being able to read. Plenty of people manage just fine getting through life with poor manners. Obviously manners are important, but bloody hell some people need to chill out.

@Ridiculousradish yes I found mealtimes stressful. We had to use our fork the correct way up for peas. I got nagged at that my elbows must remain by my sides at all times, even if that made actually eating more difficult. I used to eat slowly so I could stay at the table on my own to eat in peace.

I never have a second meal with people that eat open mouthed.
I've even turned down invitations to family events because I knew I'd be sat with chompers and slurpers

Yeah same Pigeonpocket.
Oh God the fucking pea fork debacle ls we used to have! Meal times were just so stressful. I don't want the same for my son. It's an opportunity for us to get together at the end of the day and connect, not a time for stress.
I had to spend hours sat at the table til I ate the meat put in front of me. I didn't like it. I've never liked it. My poor Mum, she couldn't understand how I could be so bloody cheeky. She came from a massive family and there was bugger all money. You'd never turn down food.
My parents were very worried about what others thought. We weren't allowed to eat in the street as it was "common."

I couldn't go on a second date with someone who spoke with their mouth full of food.

I think there’s less opportunity for kids to learn table manners now. People don’t eat round a table so much (we don’t even have a table, for us it’s just because we don’t like eating at one but I’d imagine a lot of people don’t have one due to lack of space). A lot of the restaurants people eat out now are the type where you can get away with using your hands - pizzas, burgers, street food type Mexican places, Nando’s etc. Unless you’re quite well off and eat at a lot of smaller independent type places you can get away with not even using cutlery.

My son is 9 and has autism and dyspraxia and can’t use a knife. He can use a fork. But I don’t make an issue of it because being honest until he was 4 all he would ever eat was tuna sandwiches (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and the last thing I want to do is create issues around food again- he was under a dietician for restricted eating. We were told to just make food as positive an experience as possible and not to add any judgement or negativity. He will now eat most things but it’s a long road. We do eat out a lot as a family but never anywhere he’d stand out as having bad manners.

I was brought up by a very strict middle class mum and dad who always told me elbows off the table, sit up straight etc etc. We used to eat out at fancy places all the time (my dad was the chief executive of a large international company, he was always meeting clients etc). I remember being absolutely embarrassed once at a very posh place where I tried to eat a Brussel sprout and it rolled down the long table where a waiter used a silver dustpan and brush to sweep it up….!

THere's a lot of infantilising of children so that a 10 year old who can't do the most basic of things is considered normal, this includes table manners and there's an attitude of, "he can learn this later". But "later" is probably too late.

Having said that, I think as a society we are less rigid, which is a good thing. So eating neatly and politely is still v important, but it's less and less important whether you hold your knife exactly the "right" way. I'm sure there are still people who notice if this isn't right, but the bulk of us notice whether the people sitting with us eat in a way that makes it unpleasant for the rest of us or not.

Having said that, it IS important, and parents are doing their DC a disservice by not working on the basics. I regularly tell my DC, when they complain, that I owe my career at least in part to being able to behave and eat appropriately in a restaurant - my second job interview was over lunch and it was pretty clear it was partly to ensure that I could be trusted to behave in a way that would work for their rich, poncey clients!

Also, please and thank you. I spend my life reminding children to say this. My own seem to have it largely automatically (at least at home or when I am within hearing distance) but I can't remember the last time one of their friends used a "please" and thank yous, while more common, are still rare.

My dc would probably eat chicken breast like a lollipop at home in front of the tv or in the dinner hall laughing and joking with friends. They wouldn't in a restaurant or at the table at a family meal. I think it's important to know when things like that matter more or matter less.

I don't know. Meal times were never comfortable for us, when I was a child. My Dad had a tendency to go off into rants, and could be a tad violent. Table manners were held as being extremely important - no elbows on the table, hold the knife properly, not allowed to turn the fork over, even for sodding peas. We encourage table manners, but overall I want meals to be relaxed, sociable times. I think there's a balance in everything!

Things are changing. "No elbows on table" is no longer a rule. It's no longer normal to insist that children ask permission before getting down from the table when they've finished eating. There's always a messy stage while "bad manners" morphs into "accepted norm".

I've never understood why elbows on the table was considered bad manners? Most of the others make sense, eg. Not talking with your mouth full.

A friend and mine were lamenting table manners of today recently. She told me of a dinner she was present at, where a junior solicitor was pulled aside by a senior partner, told to make her excuses and leave, because she wasn't going to continue at the table with clients with table manners like that. Poor girl, she must have been mortified. And I imagine, it was somewhat career limiting.

I honestly don't think it matters!

A friend of my son's was round for dinner the other night and jesus fucking christ, I had to get up and walk away from him or I was going to shout. Chewing with his mouth wide open whilst continuing to talk. Food spitting everywhere. Every forkfull I was telling him to close his mouth and he gave me this most horrible look (he's properly spoilt by his parent's. They do not tell him off so he doesnt react well). He didnt like the herbs on the potatoes so sat throwing his potatoes at me/onto my plate. Kept putting his fingers all over the food sitting in the serving dishes. Eating with his hands and then touching my son on the arm with his messy fingers. Never again is he coming over for dinner. It happens every time and I've lost all patience.

It's not his fault. He gets his dinner alone, on his knee, infront of the TV. So he has never learned. He's 8. His parents have fucked up really.

@newnortherner111

Not surprised. Also those who might intervene such as restaurant staff will get abuse and not be supported by their managers.

This is the most ludicrous thing I’ve read here this week. You think that poverty wage labourers should step in and perform basic parenting on strangers kids? Seriously? 🤣

@MedusasBadHairDay

I've never understood why elbows on the table was considered bad manners? Most of the others make sense, eg. Not talking with your mouth full.

www.rd.com/article/elbows-on-the-table-why-is-it-considered-rude/

I genuinely don't understand why people are expected to eat with a fork in the left hand and a knife in the right throughout the entire meal. I know how to do it, but frankly, I cut my food and put down the knife, then swap my fork to the right hand. I don't see how that means I have poor manners.

I am teaching 1yo DS to use a spoon and once he's got that, I will teach him to use a knife and fork. But I certainly won't expect aristocratic eating from him.

I see "please", "thank you", "excuse me", and basic kindness as good manners. That is what I will expect from my child!

frankly, I cut my food and put down the knife, then swap my fork to the right hand. I don't see how that means I have poor manners.

even if it wasn't bad manner, what a lot of unnecessary fuss.

Speak for yourself @kindaclassy... I love that I have friends that pitch in and that I do the same at theirs. We are all at home in each other’s homes and that is extremely precious to me.
And I love children helping out, even if they ultimately cause more work... how else do they learn?! Horses for courses.

@Librariesmakeshhhhappen

A friend of my son's was round for dinner the other night and jesus fucking christ, I had to get up and walk away from him or I was going to shout. Chewing with his mouth wide open whilst continuing to talk. Food spitting everywhere. Every forkfull I was telling him to close his mouth and he gave me this most horrible look (he's properly spoilt by his parent's. They do not tell him off so he doesnt react well). He didnt like the herbs on the potatoes so sat throwing his potatoes at me/onto my plate. Kept putting his fingers all over the food sitting in the serving dishes. Eating with his hands and then touching my son on the arm with his messy fingers. Never again is he coming over for dinner. It happens every time and I've lost all patience.

It's not his fault. He gets his dinner alone, on his knee, infront of the TV. So he has never learned. He's 8. His parents have fucked up really.

I think the correct thing to do here is exactly what you'd do with an adult with bad table manners - perfectly reasonable to not invite them back, it's your house, and one discreet and gentle reminder that they've got their mouth full is fine, but repeatedly and ostentatiously correcting their manners, especially in front of other people is - ironically - very rude.

@LabiaMinoraPissusFlapus

I honestly don't think it matters!

It does.

And having good table manners means you are comfortable everywhere. You can eat at school, with friends, in a pub or very nice restaurant, with your boss, with your boyfriend parents for the first time, the same rules still apply and you don't think about it.

It's no effort to check what the rules are when you have to adapt to an unfamiliar culture, but at least you should know your own.

@Hardbackwriter

He was spitting for onto my own children's plates from his mouth. My kitchen table isnt huge. Supposed to just let that carry on with every mouthful?
Children are not adults. We dont need to sit there meekly ignoring their bad behaviour. If his parent's actually bloody patented then he wouldn't be such a state at other people's homes.

I ignored the food throwing after one telling off. I ignored the eating with his hands. I ignored him putting his messy hands all over my son's t-shirt. I cannot ignore him spitting food pieces he has chewed onto my son's food.

@undermycatsthumb

Speak for yourself *@kindaclassy*... I love that I have friends that pitch in and that I do the same at theirs. We are all at home in each other’s homes and that is extremely precious to me. And I love children helping out, even if they ultimately cause more work... how else do they learn?! Horses for courses.

kids practice at home, not in somebody else's house.

We are all at home in each other’s homes yeah... and we end up reading so many threads about people being overly "at home" and not respecting any boundaries 😂

It might work with some very close friends, but it won't apply to every single one of your friends anyway. I have heard that comment so many times, of guests being overly "helpful" and making a nuisance of themselves instead.

I cannot ignore him spitting food pieces he has chewed onto my son's food.

THAT would not be tolerated in most schools either, and the child would get a telling off, even pre-Covid.

I would be interested to hear from teachers how much leeway you have these days to correct children's table manners or whether this is a big no-no.

Back in the 60s/early-70s at my primary school proper behaviour at the table was very much expected. We didn't have a separate dining hall so the classroom had to be turned in to a dining space with desks pushed together and then the tables were set by the children. We had table cloths (I kid you not) and the cutlery, glasses and water jug had to be put in their correct place. It was one of the very first things we learnt to do at 5 or less. Then there was grace and we all sat down together to eat.

We were expected to eat properly and behave at the table but the teachers were not so strict as to make it stressful. You could talk to the people on your table and anyone struggling to use knife and fork properly would be helped to cut things up at first. However, shouting, running around or eating with your fingers would NOT be tolerated.

I think that this was probably a good thing especially for children who didn't have this sort of behaviour instilled at home. We always sat and ate together as a family so it wasn't anything new to me, but presumably for some of the children it was their first introduction to polite behaviour at the table.

Ironically the only time I can remember anybody behaving badly or making a fuss it was a little boy from one of the more well off middle-class families in the village who was being sent to the village school until he was old enough to be packed off to prep. I think Mummy used to pander a bit to his fads and didn't try to insist on him sitting still and trying his vegetables. As a 5 year old I was suitably shocked to hear him tell the (very gentle) headmaster that he "bloody well wasn't going to eat it"