To not swap land with my neighbour?

[TreeTrials]

Our neighbours are wanting to renovate their garage to incorporate it into their house. It sits alongside our garden boundary wall which is at an angle. Than angle makes it hard for them to do the changes they want because the room would be very narrow at the bottom.

They have previously talked to us about swapping land so they have a more regular shaped room. We expressed reluctance as we don't need the land they were offering and we have some mature bushes/trees growing out of the wall (it's a wide very old stone one). These trees and bushes provide privacy screening so that we don't see their house. If they are cut down, or die due to disturbed roots, we'll be staring at the side of their house rather than greenery. That was the end of the conversation.

They have now sent through technical drawings for their proposal and the proposed wall for the renovated garage appears be to on our land. It feels a bit cheeky given how we'd left things.

Should we let them proceed? The land is the corner of our garden and isn't used for anything useful - it's very dark and full of garden junk. I feel for them that the shape of the land makes their plans pretty hard to achieve with the boundary plan as it is.

My main concern is loss of privacy from the loss of the trees. But then I'm wondering what the situation would be if they change their plans to follow the boundary - they may still end up killing the trees as I imagine the roots will be disturbed whatever work they do. If this is going to be the case (not that I want them to kill our trees!) should we just suck it up?

I don't know for certain, but am reasonably sure the wall is ours as our house was built a long time before theirs. I've attached a very bad drawing.

YABU - it's only a small amount of land and makes their plans possible. Suck it up.

YANBU - you don't have to give away your land and lose your trees to make your neighbours' life better.

I really think this is a non-starter (why would anyone even think it was okay to build beyond their boundary, permission or not!)

I can't imagine they'd honour the requirement of mature trees for screening as that's bound to cause problems with subsidence so close to their new garage.

Let alone the other 99 reasons 😁

Be careful, they can get planning against land that isn't their own, just like you can get planning application in principle on land you're looking at buying to see if it's worth it.
If they get planning and a builder who doesn't know better they might just try to huldoze ahead!

If you agree it needs sorting at land registry and with mortgage lenders and would need a surveyor to draw up plans. Are they prepare to cover costs of all of that? And new valuation for your mortgage?

Also, IMO you need to tell them that you are not agreeing to this until you have taken legal advice.

If you say, "yes, Okay" I can guarantee they will start on the work very quickly, leaving the legal paperwork until the building work is completed. At that point, your boundary has changed and they aren't going to care too much about making sure all the paperwork is sorted for you, if you have regrets it will be too late.

For goodness sake, tell them that you need to speak to a solicitor to find out the implications for your property.

Our house is listed (it's really very old) and that applies to the boundary wall as well as the house itself

In that case, and if you want an excuse (though goodness knows why you'd need one) just point out what the legals would cost them to get it altered

You'll probably hear no more about it, and if you do you can just move to a straight "no"
Frankly it beats me why you didn't in the first place; so what if your house and garden are bigger than theirs? Would you give them the use of one of your bedrooms too?

Having thought about it, it would be a form if architectural vandalism as well as a bad idea for all the other reasons others have pointed out.

How can someone submit planning permission for land they don't own?

If you let this happen you’ll find it very difficult to sell your house, as will your neighbors. It’s hard enough when building on party walls but building on neighbors land is going to throw reg flags on any conveyancing.sorry for American spelling, my phone refuses to let me correct it

I'd be fighting determined to keep the old stone wall. It's not your fault they bought a plot that can't accommodate the work they want to do.

The only caveat might be if the wall needs rebuilding anyway and will de done with existing stone etc.

How can someone submit planning permission for land they don't own?

As I understand it and I could be wrong, I think anyone can put forward proposals for planning on any land but clearly if they don't own the land they can't go ahead with the building.

I think developers use it to see what buildings would be allowed.

@HeronLanyon

The wall is listed ! Oh well I don’t think even you would be permitted to interfere with it let alone a neighbour ! That will make it more straightforward to say a very flat no. Explain you don’t want to and that in any event it is listed etc. I would do this in writing somehow so you have clear paper trail.

Yes, and take photos of it as well, in case you come home one day to find half of it 'accidentally' demolished.

Why is your DH so keen to not look “difficult “ ? I think the vast majority of people would say no to this. I certainly would. Especially with a very old wall and established trees. I think this has disaster written all over it and would cause you no end of disruption and stress. All the benefit is for them, why on earth would you bother ?
Saying you want to keep land that you own isn’t being difficult, it isn’t your role to facilitate the desires of your neighbours and they are being extremely pushy, that is not good.
Just the mumsnet classic response is enough “No. that doesn’t work for us”.

And with a listed wall, you would be insane to even consider it. No end of trouble and devaluation of your own property. Just no.

This isn't about a tiny bit of fairly useless land, it's about an ancient, listed wall and established trees. That should make it an easy decision. It's an unreasonable request. If it was a little wedge of a modern garden and moving a fence, maybe, but not in these circumstances

If i had said I didn't want to and they went and got drawings done i would be more determined than ever not to give in. They are CFs and are trying to railroad you into it.

Re the wall - it's a short, ramshackled thing not of any great merit (except the stones are old). It's not visible from the road. It's barely visible from our garden (bushes etc in the way) and it's not visible from the neighbours as their run down garage sits alongside it. Have it moved and rebuilt won't affect the value of our property at all.

Knowing of their plan to demolish part of the wall, if you were to agree, may well involve you in any fine for their breach of planning if they did demolish part of an ancient listed wall. ??
But back basics - you don’t want to do this - it’s your land and wall - just say no (plus in writing and photos and mention of listing)

The chances of getting a Conservation Officer to agree that a listed, old wall be knocked down is... not high.

We live in a relatively new house and our plot is the biggest on there. Do I feel guilty that I have a bigger garden than my neighbours? Not a jot. Everyone knew what they were buying. You have two options
Say No. just that no further explanation required.
Say yes but everything is subject to your approval and satisfaction but they pay for everything every single thing. Not a penny comes out of your pocket. Everything is done through solicitors and with a surveyor of your choice.
However since you say it's a 16c listed building, I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of getting permission to do this.
Make sure they don't accidentally knock the wall down when they start building.

Honestly OP, If you want to consider their proposal I would go and see your neighbours and explain that you are not giving the go ahead for this work until you have got legal advice and clearly you would be expecting them to pay the bill.

I think you need to do this because the very fact that they have gone ahead and given you technical drawings after you were stated that you were reluctant about the idea suggests to me that they are CF's and they have probably already got someone booked to do the job. I have a horrible feeling that you will wake up one morning to the noise of builders starting the job.

If it was me, I wouldn't even entertain it and I would put it in writing to them that you have considered and you don't want to proceed.

If you want to consider their proposal, make it very clear that you need legal advice and at this point you are agreeing to nothing.

From your latest op it sounds as though you are trying to find reasons to accede despite not wanting to. Listing covers all sorts of things which may not be visible from the road etc. Sometimes it’s about the character of a plot, the age of the boundaries, the shape of fields, the relationship between boundaries and the structures etc etc etc etc. It’s not always chocolate box properties alone.
So don’t destroy this when you don’t want to anyway. Dh needs to man up and realise there are more important things than placating neighbours who want a new garage When you don’t even want to !

OK - I've done a first draft email. Feel free to critique but bear in mind we are on friendly enough terms and don't want to fall out over this if it can be avoided:

"It was good to see your plans, thanks for sharing them in advance. Obviously the green triangle is part of our property and I assume you're proposing that we swap this for the upper triangle?

From our perspective the triangle you're proposing to forgo is not very usable and therefore of no benefit to us. However, as mentioned before our main concern is ensuring the look & feel from our side remains essentially the same. Currently (in summer at least) we have almost entire tree cover and can barely see your property.

We've had a think about some key considerations and some questions. It's obviously helpful to get such things clear early on. Obviously we've only got the pictures you sent through to go on, so these might be covered elsewhere in your planning application.

Practical:

1. We'd want all the shrubbery, trees and plants that would be lost in the works to be replaced with plants of similar maturity. At least 2 of the trees which would be affected are around 20ft high. Of these, an elder is right on the very corner of the boundary. This area looks to be part of the triangle you're hoping to utilise. We wouldn't have room to replant the elder on our side due to a patio/other planting so wonder what your proposal would be to maintain the same tree cover?

2. We'd need the dry stone wall professionally rebuilding to a similar height. As above, we'd also need to find a way to replace the lilac which is currently growing out of the wall. That could be by building a planter into the wall in some manner.

3. It's not totally clear what land you'd need as the elevational drawings you provided don't seem to include the current trees and wall. We think it would be really helpful if we were to talk through all the risks with the architect and builder so they you, we and they know what we might be dealing with.

Legal

1. Our houses are both in a conservation area. I believe that all trees which could potentially be affected by the work (on our land as well as yours) should be assessed by an arboricultural consultant in accordance with British Standard BS5837:2012 and details submitted with any planning application. This will include our mature cherry tree as it's roots may be within a protection area and not just the boundary trees.

2. Our house is listed. The listing extends to the garage, garden buildings and boundry walls. Listed buiding consent would therefore need to be obtained for any work to the wall. Having been through this process a few times there's quite a lot of time and potential cost involved in this and no guarantee that permission would be granted.

3. If all the above issues are resolved, the title plans will need to be redrawn and lodged at HM Land Registry. We'd both need independent legal advice on this.

4. I think we'd need a party wall agreement drawing up in relation to the rebuilt wall.

Since swapping the land is of no benefit to us, we'd need you to undertake all the processes required, pay for all the surveys, planning advice and legal advice (including any of our fees and expenses) in addition to sourcing appropriate replacement trees. If all of that works for you I think the next step would be meeting with your architect and builder. "

No one swaps land. If you want to sell a bit to them, that's fine. Talk to a solicitor.

Oh so you’re going to agree ?! Where was the ‘no we just don’t want to do this and it listed anyway?’ Sorry I must have completely misunderstood your first post. Thought you didn’t want this.

No one swaps land. If you want to sell a bit to them, that's fine. Talk to a solicitor.

This

check if they have entered planning permission on line -enter objection
make a point this is a party wall issue & you HAVE NOT given permission or received one &this is on your land & will affect mature trees (which may have protected status which you can apply for now if they haven't) This will devalue your property. Re the planning you can be notified of any update or changes by ticking this on your neighbours plans or address on the planning website &give your email address (I pretty sure it does have this facility)
Go to your solicitor & get him to write a letter on your behalf stating they do not have your permission to do any building or demolition of old wall or cutting trees on your land & send it to neighbour. It would be worthwhile to do this. When they purchased their property I am sure they were happy with the garden size & surely didn't assume they could bulldoze their neighbour into giving them a bit of their land!
NO WAY