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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not swap land with my neighbour?

531 replies

TreeTrials · 23/06/2021 15:44

Our neighbours are wanting to renovate their garage to incorporate it into their house. It sits alongside our garden boundary wall which is at an angle. Than angle makes it hard for them to do the changes they want because the room would be very narrow at the bottom.

They have previously talked to us about swapping land so they have a more regular shaped room. We expressed reluctance as we don't need the land they were offering and we have some mature bushes/trees growing out of the wall (it's a wide very old stone one). These trees and bushes provide privacy screening so that we don't see their house. If they are cut down, or die due to disturbed roots, we'll be staring at the side of their house rather than greenery. That was the end of the conversation.

They have now sent through technical drawings for their proposal and the proposed wall for the renovated garage appears be to on our land. It feels a bit cheeky given how we'd left things.

Should we let them proceed? The land is the corner of our garden and isn't used for anything useful - it's very dark and full of garden junk. I feel for them that the shape of the land makes their plans pretty hard to achieve with the boundary plan as it is.

My main concern is loss of privacy from the loss of the trees. But then I'm wondering what the situation would be if they change their plans to follow the boundary - they may still end up killing the trees as I imagine the roots will be disturbed whatever work they do. If this is going to be the case (not that I want them to kill our trees!) should we just suck it up?

I don't know for certain, but am reasonably sure the wall is ours as our house was built a long time before theirs. I've attached a very bad drawing.

YABU - it's only a small amount of land and makes their plans possible. Suck it up.

YANBU - you don't have to give away your land and lose your trees to make your neighbours' life better.

To not swap land with my neighbour?
OP posts:
EvenRosesHaveThorns · 23/06/2021 18:05

No, don't play nice just to please your neighbours, they're being extremely pushy!

godmum56 · 23/06/2021 18:05

@TreeTrials

I think we feel bad because our house and garden is substantially bigger than theirs. DH is saying we'd be twats not to at least consider their proposal. He's saying we could specify that they replace the mature trees.
hahahahahaha and hahahahaha also ha ha

why in the name of the wee donkey should that make you feel bad?

RedToothBrush · 23/06/2021 18:06

@TreeTrials

Actually just thought of another issue. Our house is listed (it's really very old) and that applies to the boundary wall as well as the house itself.
Well there you go.

"No I don't want to."

"And even if I vaguely were to consider it would be a legal nightmare because the house and boundary are listed so chances are it wouldn't be possible anyway."

"I will be putting this in writing just so there are no possible disputes in the future because I am concerned that you didn't understand the first time we said no."

Justlovedogs · 23/06/2021 18:08

OP - I haven't read the full thread, but I think you'll find that planning won't like mature trees (or any trees, to be honest) within 5m of the building due to the potential damage to foundations/changes to ground conditions due to changes in water content. I think you'll need to be comfortable to lose the privacy and see a wall of some sort.

godmum56 · 23/06/2021 18:08

@TreeTrials

Sorry, not meaning to drip feed!

I'm currently going through a box of plans and pictures (including copies of map from 1550) trying to find boundary plans.

DH is keen not to look like we're being difficult but wants to set out all the matters they would have to resolve. He think that they just haven't thought it through and when they do they will realise it's better to have an odd shaped room!

please please tell your DH that "sorry we have considered this and the answer is no" is polite and acceptable. If you don't want to do it then don't give them a list off issues to overcome or they won't go away.
ChargingBuck · 23/06/2021 18:10

We expressed reluctance as we don't need the land they were offering and we have some mature bushes/trees growing out of the wall (it's a wide very old stone one). These trees and bushes provide privacy screening so that we don't see their house. If they are cut down, or die due to disturbed roots, we'll be staring at the side of their house rather than greenery. That was the end of the conversation.

OP, I'm puzzled. Are you having an attack of the people-pleasers?

All the reasons you articulated above are perfectly valid.
It's clear you don't want the neighbours to proceed, but what isn't clear is how robustly you "expressed reluctance", because the neighbours have obviously either not heard you, or are attempting to pressure you into agreement.

It's your land, your trees & planting, & your view that will be affected.
That trumps their desire for a garage renovation.
The land swap cannot be a negotiation - because it's a win:lose scenario.
The neighbours get everything they want, & you get less than nothing, because not only are you failing to gain from the propsed swap, you are actively losing. You don't want their patch of land, you don't want your trees & plants disturbed, & you certainly don't want a blank view of their house wall.

Woman up, & tell them no.
Explain clearly that you are surpised to see the plans, as you thought you had already had this conversation, & already told them you are not keen. Although this time, you are going to have to stop using ameliorative language & use the word "no."

It's not your job to facilitate their desired renovation. It's your job to protect your own wishes, & your asset.

bluebell34567 · 23/06/2021 18:11

if you give an inch they will go for a mile.
dont do it. you will regret.

mumwon · 23/06/2021 18:11

don't forget that the foundations will be larger than the building so will extend further into your land & will make a bigger mess in your garden than just a wall of the building
The cheek of this neighbour suggests that if they overstepped the plans you would have a really nasty & difficult situation & I wouldn't be surprised if they did try to take advantage
You would definitely need to get solicitors involved & they cost more than £100 an hours -so it would be costly
Please say no for your sake

DespairingHomeowner · 23/06/2021 18:12

@ScrollingLeaves

Given this old wall and the old trees it is self explanatory anyway.
I think the best way tbh is to put a (really high!) monetary value on the old tree & walls and suggest you might CONSIDER it if they were to come up with this (obviously ridiculous) figure. That is a way to close off the conversation

Also, can you even demolish a wall in a listed building? Might your tree have a TPO?

Nomorepies · 23/06/2021 18:12

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on the poster's request

ChargingBuck · 23/06/2021 18:15

I think we feel bad because our house and garden is substantially bigger than theirs.

FFS!!!!!!

Are you better looking than they are?
Are you going to slash scars into your face to even things up in the attractiveness stakes?

What are you having for dinner tonight?
If it's more delicious than theirs, make sure you pop round & swap.

NeilBuchananisBanksy · 23/06/2021 18:17

The wall is listed too so they'll need permission to demolish it which probably isn't going to be forthcoming. Plus the mature tree will be protected as you are in a conservation area. Plus all the other legal hurdles.

Sorry to ask this but is your DH always this wet? So what if you have a bigger garden?!

MrsExpo · 23/06/2021 18:19

Check that there isn’t some sort of preservation order on the wall. If it’s an old stone wall, there may well be. Absolutely agree with everyone else, you’re heading for real issues in the future if you agree.

godmum56 · 23/06/2021 18:19

"I think the best way tbh is to put a (really high!) monetary value on the old tree & walls and suggest you might CONSIDER it if they were to come up with this (obviously ridiculous) figure. That is a way to close off the conversation"

ermmm no, the best way to close off the conversation is to say "no'

alternatively "Never going to do it while my arse points south" works as well

ChargingBuck · 23/06/2021 18:21

DH is saying we'd be twats not to at least consider their proposal.

Then he is scarily naive.
If he wants to consider, talk through all the points for consideration PP's have given you. Legal, costs, asset-depreciation possibility, & simple enjoyment of your own property, for crying out loud.

You both appear to be coming at this from the angle of "should" & "ought".
Are you especially pally with the neighbours? Would they give you a chunk of better-placed land if you demanded it?

Either way, you need to be wary. Unless you were particularly unassertive with your previous "expressed reluctance", they are already being tremendously entitled CF's for drawing up the plan to nick your land & ruin your plants & view.

qualitygirl · 23/06/2021 18:23

How much land are they actually talking about OP? As in sqft/sqmetres?? I know it's only a drawing but it doesn't look like much at all. I'm not saying you should agree by any means.

Hawkins001 · 23/06/2021 18:23

@TreeTrials

Our neighbours are wanting to renovate their garage to incorporate it into their house. It sits alongside our garden boundary wall which is at an angle. Than angle makes it hard for them to do the changes they want because the room would be very narrow at the bottom.

They have previously talked to us about swapping land so they have a more regular shaped room. We expressed reluctance as we don't need the land they were offering and we have some mature bushes/trees growing out of the wall (it's a wide very old stone one). These trees and bushes provide privacy screening so that we don't see their house. If they are cut down, or die due to disturbed roots, we'll be staring at the side of their house rather than greenery. That was the end of the conversation.

They have now sent through technical drawings for their proposal and the proposed wall for the renovated garage appears be to on our land. It feels a bit cheeky given how we'd left things.

Should we let them proceed? The land is the corner of our garden and isn't used for anything useful - it's very dark and full of garden junk. I feel for them that the shape of the land makes their plans pretty hard to achieve with the boundary plan as it is.

My main concern is loss of privacy from the loss of the trees. But then I'm wondering what the situation would be if they change their plans to follow the boundary - they may still end up killing the trees as I imagine the roots will be disturbed whatever work they do. If this is going to be the case (not that I want them to kill our trees!) should we just suck it up?

I don't know for certain, but am reasonably sure the wall is ours as our house was built a long time before theirs. I've attached a very bad drawing.

YABU - it's only a small amount of land and makes their plans possible. Suck it up.

YANBU - you don't have to give away your land and lose your trees to make your neighbours' life better.

Id say what about buying the land off you ?
ChargingBuck · 23/06/2021 18:24

They are showing us the plans before submitting to planning. That seems weird to me though as they can't get planning on someone else's land.

Because, OP - & I really cannot stress this enough - they are relying on you to cave in & give them what they want.

I wish you'd stop tying yourself in knots & realise that "no thanks, I don't want to" is an entirely reasonable response to your neighbours' high-handed tactics.

godmum56 · 23/06/2021 18:26

@ChargingBuck

DH is saying we'd be twats not to at least consider their proposal.

Then he is scarily naive.
If he wants to consider, talk through all the points for consideration PP's have given you. Legal, costs, asset-depreciation possibility, & simple enjoyment of your own property, for crying out loud.

You both appear to be coming at this from the angle of "should" & "ought".
Are you especially pally with the neighbours? Would they give you a chunk of better-placed land if you demanded it?

Either way, you need to be wary. Unless you were particularly unassertive with your previous "expressed reluctance", they are already being tremendously entitled CF's for drawing up the plan to nick your land & ruin your plants & view.

you have considered it. You don't want to do it.
Cailleach1 · 23/06/2021 18:27

They need to tick the correct certificate in the planning application, then. Saying that they do not own all the land in their proposed development.

That wall offers you a lot of protection against disbenefits of any development next door.

Sciurus83 · 23/06/2021 18:27

You can't replace a mature tree. It will take years to reach maturity. The mumsnet classic "no is a complete sentence" is your friend here

ElaineMarieBenes · 23/06/2021 18:29

I like the stance taken by your DH - he sounds very reasonable!

PanamaPattie · 23/06/2021 18:29

Your house is listed and so is the wall. End of story for your neighbours.

MzHz · 23/06/2021 18:30

When a property is listed, it’s the building and everything within the boundaries of that property (curtilage)

We found this. Wanted to convey the garage built in 90s next to the converted c16 barn but had to put in listed building consent

Ditto for replacing the patio

In your case @TreeTrials even if you wanted to do this, there’s a strong possibility that planning wouldn’t allow you to do this

Call the conservation officer and ask their advice for how to deal with this. It’s critical that they are kept informed because if something happens to your property YOU will be held liable

WutheringTights · 23/06/2021 18:32

If you do go ahead, having considered all the excellent points raised above such as conservation area/TPO/listed building concerns, them paying for your surveyor/legal costs etc, don't forget to do a proper party wall agreement (at their cost). Also, if you want anything put there as a replacement for the wall, such as replacement planting/wall then it's best to estimate the cost of doing it and get the cash from them up front as the price for the land. Then you stay in control of the process and can plant/build what you want. Get it written into the party wall agreement and planning permission too.