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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not swap land with my neighbour?

531 replies

TreeTrials · 23/06/2021 15:44

Our neighbours are wanting to renovate their garage to incorporate it into their house. It sits alongside our garden boundary wall which is at an angle. Than angle makes it hard for them to do the changes they want because the room would be very narrow at the bottom.

They have previously talked to us about swapping land so they have a more regular shaped room. We expressed reluctance as we don't need the land they were offering and we have some mature bushes/trees growing out of the wall (it's a wide very old stone one). These trees and bushes provide privacy screening so that we don't see their house. If they are cut down, or die due to disturbed roots, we'll be staring at the side of their house rather than greenery. That was the end of the conversation.

They have now sent through technical drawings for their proposal and the proposed wall for the renovated garage appears be to on our land. It feels a bit cheeky given how we'd left things.

Should we let them proceed? The land is the corner of our garden and isn't used for anything useful - it's very dark and full of garden junk. I feel for them that the shape of the land makes their plans pretty hard to achieve with the boundary plan as it is.

My main concern is loss of privacy from the loss of the trees. But then I'm wondering what the situation would be if they change their plans to follow the boundary - they may still end up killing the trees as I imagine the roots will be disturbed whatever work they do. If this is going to be the case (not that I want them to kill our trees!) should we just suck it up?

I don't know for certain, but am reasonably sure the wall is ours as our house was built a long time before theirs. I've attached a very bad drawing.

YABU - it's only a small amount of land and makes their plans possible. Suck it up.

YANBU - you don't have to give away your land and lose your trees to make your neighbours' life better.

To not swap land with my neighbour?
OP posts:
Custardandnoodle · 23/06/2021 17:35

Do you get on with the neighbours? I'm going to go against the general consensus as we bought a bit of our neighbours garden off them so we could extend. We paid for solicitors, fencing and screening. Neighbour was consulted and happy with all the plants, fencing etc and it was all agreed via solicitor. If you think neighbours are the kind of people who will do the right thing by you I think you should do it. If not, well no is a complete sentence.

Cattitudes · 23/06/2021 17:38

Oh missed that it is in a conservation area, then even more important that you do it all legally. It might not be possible to move an old wall in a conservation area. Trees are also protected in a conservation area. Take lots of photos now in case they try to damage anything.

Rainbowsew · 23/06/2021 17:40

What if they bought the land?

I agree with pp though it would have to be done legally and above board, they can't just "swap" because they want to!

Cailleach1 · 23/06/2021 17:40

Is the wall is party wall? Shared ownership and responsibility by either side, straddling a boundary Or is it completely on one side?

Notwithstanding that, I wouldn't change my boundary. Is there an Article 4 direction in your area, or is it a slightly less stringent Conservation zone?

ScrollingLeaves · 23/06/2021 17:41

“DH thinks we should allow them to move the boundary but tell them to rebuild the wall (thinner) with a new mature tree where the laurel is. He's nicer than I am.“

If is an old stone wall, for me a new thinner one would not be the same thing. Would proper stone masons build it? What period is it?

How do you get a replacement tree that is both new and also mature? Have you checked you can buy one the size of the existing one? Has an expert checked to see if the right size depth and diameter of hole would be possible?

Mightn’t that quirky angle of your wall be part of the history and character of your garden?

What about the legal work for new deeds. Have they mentioned they would pay?

Having said all this, obviously it would be nice for your neighbours if you gave them what they want.

AdjustableAssholeSettings · 23/06/2021 17:42

Can't they just pretend their wall is like the red line and leave the land at the side?

To not swap land with my neighbour?
Marcanana · 23/06/2021 17:43

You've told them no, they haven't listened and have gone ahead and got plans drawn up anyway. That already shows they don't give two hoots about what YOU want so don't expect them to be any more considerate during their build or in reinstating your wall and garden.

I have a neighbour like this so recognise the signs; I bitterly regret giving a (proverbial) inch because they took a (proverbial) mile - among other things, "just a little bit of pipework" turned into great snaking lengths of plumbing and guttering overhanging.

If you DO, in the interests of neighbourly relations, decide to go ahead, at the very least get a decent solicitor of your own choice involved (they pay), to deal with the transfer of land and any conditional clauses in terms of reinstatement - and think about a covenant on your transferred land to prevent them (or any future owner) from doing anything with it that might be to your detriment.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/06/2021 17:46

“MustardRose said
If it is older than both your houses, then there's a reason it was left where it is and not demolished years ago.“

I agree. There is something unusual about that angle. I should think it will show up on very old maps.

You can look on historical ordinance survey maps on line. It sounds older than these but it would still be interesting.

The more I think about it the more of a shame it sounds. Your neighbours knew the lack of garage when they bought their house.

Now wanting to neaten it and suburbanite it is a pity.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/06/2021 17:47

Suburbanise it

DroopyClematis · 23/06/2021 17:49

Absolutely no way. You can't just allow it.
It could well be disputed and cause difficulties in years to come.

It is your land.

I'd probably ask for a free half hour with a solicitor. They will put you right.

SilentPanic · 23/06/2021 17:49

Even if I had been considering it, I'd rule it out due to the sheer fucking cheek of them drawing up plans for your land! Who even does that? It's a sign of things to come OP- if they're that cheeky, God knows what liberties they'll take.

Lougle · 23/06/2021 17:50

"Demolishing a boundary fence, wall or other means of enclosure is permitted development under class B, Part 31 of Schedule 2 of the General Permitted Development Order. However, on 1 October 2013 this provision was amended to exclude boundary walls in conservation areas.

This means that if the owner of a building in a conservation area wants to demolish, in whole or in part,

“any gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure”.

This means, in conservation areas, building owners must first seek planning permission before they can demolish a party wall or party fence wall, or even a garden fence, even if all the other works are permitted development.

The phrase “other means of enclosure” is potentially very broad indeed, and could potentially include trees, hedges and bushes. If correct, the owner would need planning permission before they could cut (i.e. demolish in part) the tree, hedge or bush."

www.morrlaw.com/party-wall/demolishing-boundary-party-walls-conservation-areas/

Cryalot2 · 23/06/2021 17:52

Do not agree . Speak to a solicitor first and take advice on the boundaries. The deeds will have to be changed if you do decide. Also they could at some time later have something that overlooks you thanks to this. Do not just do a swap. Let him buy it from you for the going rate.
My husband was pressurised to sell a neighbour a corner off a field so that he could get better access to his which was beside it. Next thing he built a house on it. The going rate for sites were extortionate then so dh got very much taken advantage of. He only did it because he was kind and knew the man for years and thought he was a decent sort.
Not exactly the same situation, but tread carefully and legal advice and draw all agreements legally.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/06/2021 17:55

Ordnance Survey Maps Six-inch England and Wales, 1842-1952 - National Library of Scotland

maps.nls.uk/os/6inch-england-and-wales/

ScrollingLeaves · 23/06/2021 17:57

Have you mean in touch with the conservation officer in your area?

Standrewsschool · 23/06/2021 17:59

From the tone of your post, you don’t want to do it, so don’t. You’re not obliged to swop land.

Incidently, is the land they want worth the same amount of money as the land they want to give you? Do they definantly own this other land?

TreeTrials · 23/06/2021 18:00

Actually just thought of another issue. Our house is listed (it's really very old) and that applies to the boundary wall as well as the house itself.

OP posts:
Standrewsschool · 23/06/2021 18:00

@JustMeAndWheatley

Just say ‘no we don’t want to do this’ . No explanation is needed.
This
hennaoj · 23/06/2021 18:03

What if it goes ahead and the neighbour decides that they then want to change the garage into a room? Do you really want their house wall to be your new garden wall? You'll also be left without a wall at all while the building work is being done.

TreeTrials · 23/06/2021 18:03

Sorry, not meaning to drip feed!

I'm currently going through a box of plans and pictures (including copies of map from 1550) trying to find boundary plans.

DH is keen not to look like we're being difficult but wants to set out all the matters they would have to resolve. He think that they just haven't thought it through and when they do they will realise it's better to have an odd shaped room!

OP posts:
DespairingHomeowner · 23/06/2021 18:03

This would be a big NO from me for millions of reasons, including that you lose control of how much privacy you have

One additional step: I would get a couple of estate agents in to give you a value for your property with & without the land & trees you mention as I don't think this is being taken into account (even if you have no plans to move)

I can see your neighbours suggestion (as to their advantage) but if you don't want to do it you can just say no- I would

Meanwhile, if you want to smooth things over... try to 'do' something with the area (eg put a seat, bench, something there so it looks like there is a reason why you want it) - just in the interest of them not being able to bitch about it

GreyhoundG1rl · 23/06/2021 18:03

Just say ‘no we don’t want to do this
The problem appears to be op's husband, who thinks they'd be twats not to... She doesn't just have a neighbour problem.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/06/2021 18:03

Given this old wall and the old trees it is self explanatory anyway.

Mummyoflittledragon · 23/06/2021 18:04

Have they actually put in for planning permission?
If they have, object on the basis it is partly on your land and entails the demolition of your/ an old wall and mature trees in a conservation area.

If they have not, you can say you’ve taken advice and legal / conveyancing will be 10kish (this is a fact btw not just speculation) then there’s the added issue of tree replacement and wall repositioning so unfortunately this is going to be a non starter. But do it now. They aren’t thinking about the logistics either.

And either way I would be having the conversation about changing the plans.

PartTimeLegend · 23/06/2021 18:04

You need to get in touch with the conservation officer asap - especially if you live in a conservation area. Might be a good idea to contact the tree officer as well.

The neighbour needs to know straight away that you are going to say no, because otherwise you will arrive home one day to find half the wall has disappeared. The drivers of large plant machinery can sometimes be persuaded to 'accidentally' knock things down, and then it's too late to do anything about it. If you have something in writing, then you have proof you said no.