To not swap land with my neighbour?

[TreeTrials]

Our neighbours are wanting to renovate their garage to incorporate it into their house. It sits alongside our garden boundary wall which is at an angle. Than angle makes it hard for them to do the changes they want because the room would be very narrow at the bottom.

They have previously talked to us about swapping land so they have a more regular shaped room. We expressed reluctance as we don't need the land they were offering and we have some mature bushes/trees growing out of the wall (it's a wide very old stone one). These trees and bushes provide privacy screening so that we don't see their house. If they are cut down, or die due to disturbed roots, we'll be staring at the side of their house rather than greenery. That was the end of the conversation.

They have now sent through technical drawings for their proposal and the proposed wall for the renovated garage appears be to on our land. It feels a bit cheeky given how we'd left things.

Should we let them proceed? The land is the corner of our garden and isn't used for anything useful - it's very dark and full of garden junk. I feel for them that the shape of the land makes their plans pretty hard to achieve with the boundary plan as it is.

My main concern is loss of privacy from the loss of the trees. But then I'm wondering what the situation would be if they change their plans to follow the boundary - they may still end up killing the trees as I imagine the roots will be disturbed whatever work they do. If this is going to be the case (not that I want them to kill our trees!) should we just suck it up?

I don't know for certain, but am reasonably sure the wall is ours as our house was built a long time before theirs. I've attached a very bad drawing.

YABU - it's only a small amount of land and makes their plans possible. Suck it up.

YANBU - you don't have to give away your land and lose your trees to make your neighbours' life better.

@queennotififi

I would rearrange your note so that it runs like this, adding in some of the points raised in this thread. You need to assert clearly what you need to feel comfortable - no apologising for yourselves, you're within your rights to protect your property and legal position (nobody else will!).

"It was good to see your plans, thanks for sharing them in advance. Obviously the green triangle is part of our property and I assume you're proposing that we swap this for the upper triangle?

As mentioned before, we’re generally happy to do this as long as the look & feel from our side remains essentially the same. Currently (in summer at least) we have almost entire tree cover and can barely see your property. We want to keep the same outlook and privacy.

There are also some other points we’ll need to be addressed, outlined below. We’ll need to meet with you, your architect and builder to discuss these before agreeing to anything, so just let us know when would suit.

Best wishes,

Your lovely neighbours

1. PERMISSIONS Our house is listed. The listing extends to the garage, garden buildings and boundry walls. Listed buiding consent would therefore need to be obtained for any work to the wall. Having been through this process a few times there's quite a lot of time and potential cost involved in this and no guarantee that permission would be granted.

2. TREES Our houses are both in a conservation area. I believe that all trees which could potentially be affected by the work (on our land as well as yours) should be assessed by an arboricultural consultant and details submitted with any planning application. This will include our mature cherry tree as its roots may be within a protection area and not just the boundary trees. Checks will need to be made that the trees are not subject to Tree Protection Orders or similar.

3. TITLE PLANS If an exchange proceeds, the title plans will need to be redrawn and lodged at HM Land Registry. We'd both need independent legal advice on this. There may also be requirements from our mortgage company.

4. PARTY WALL I think we'd need a party wall agreement drawing up in relation to the rebuilt wall.

5. REPLACEMENT FOLIAGE We'd want all the shrubbery, trees and plants that would be lost in the works to be replaced with plants of similar maturity. At least 2 of the trees which would be affected are around 20ft high. Of these, an elder is right on the very corner of the boundary. This area looks to be part of the triangle you're hoping to utilise. We wouldn't have room to replant the elder on our side due to a patio/other planting so wonder what your proposal would be to maintain the same tree cover?

6. REPLACEMENT WALL We'd need the dry stone wall professionally rebuilding to a similar height and in-keeping with the rest of the property. As above, we'd also need to find a way to replace the lilac which is currently growing out of the wall. That could be by building a planter into the wall in some manner.

7. CLEAR BOUNDARY PLANS It's not totally clear what land you'd need as the elevational drawings you provided don't seem to include the current trees and wall. We'll need to talk through this with you and your architect so that we all know what we are dealing with and make sure plans are drawn up which include this detail to protect us both.

8. COSTS Since swapping the land is of no benefit to us, we'd need you to undertake all the processes required, pay for all costs including surveys, planning advice and legal advice (including our fees and expenses) in addition to sourcing appropriate replacement trees. We are assuming there will be some time small demands on our time, but if the time and effort required becomes onerous it may influence our willingness to proceed."

BUT BUT BUT they are not generally happy. Why would anybody want to string neighbours along?

I honestly don’t understand why you don’t just say No, end of.

All this drafting of emails and setting out conditions - if you don’t want to swap, say no. Saying Yes if they can satisfy a series of conditions just leads to them thinking it’s open to negotiation, and trying to wear you down.
For neighbourly relations I think it would be better to say No now, than start discussions which may go on for some time and not end well.

@godmum56 I thought they were going to go ahead because the OP's husband wants to.

If that's not the plan then ignore my message OP!

It's your land so sell it to them for a good price.

Not a fair price as they are desperate for it and you dont want to sell it.

So think about how much you want and what you'd do with the money.

I'd be starting at 10K at least.

You need to understand that you can have contracts drawn up with as many conditions and stipulations that you like but if they break the contract and don't do what you ask you will have to pursue them legally and that will be hugely stressful and cost a fortune. Just say no.

You have no obligation to make things nicer for the NDN at the expense of yourself.

Forget the "neighbour" stuff. This is a business opportunity so treat it as such in terms of what advantages and disadvantages it will offer to you. Then come to a decision.

OP, I mean this kindly but if your OH is often a people pleaser, and potentially struggles with implementing boundaries then he should consider therapy.

@TreeTrials

Their current garage is ugly so it would possible look better (although it would be higher) when done. They are showing us the plans before submitting to planning. That seems weird to me though as they can't get planning on someone else's land.

The wall is very deep, maybe 4 ft at the base, and not in a great state. It has a 20ft laurel growing out of it. We're not at all bothered about the triangle they are offering us. It's wasted space in relation to our garden layout.

DH thinks we should allow them to move the boundary but tell them to rebuild the wall (thinner) with a new mature tree where the laurel is. He's nicer than I am.

We'd obviously need solicitors to sort the boundary/title plan, which we wouldn't pay for.

DH thinks we should allow them to move the boundary but tell them to rebuild the wall (thinner) with a new mature tree where the laurel is.

Just that plan is so full of potential time, trouble, expense and possible aggro - what happens if they don't rebuild the wall to your satisfaction? You can't replant a mature tree without a humongous hole (under the new, thinner wall?)

There was a thread on here a few weeks ago where the neighbours builder had build a boundary wall right up the OP's drive! A complete pain and expense to address.

@ queennotififi Your advice is excellent.

This is what happened when a CF neighbour wanted to site scaffolding poles on the property of a relative of mine. Relative is a tax accountant and a very keen gardener so he thinks in terms of pounds and pence. He drew up a big long schedule of requirements and priced it all up. CF neighbour would have had to pay out ££££ including the legal agreement. No more was ever heard of the project and the CF neighbour sold up a year later.

As you're in a conservation area, you'd probably have to use the same bricks to rebuild the wall. That means the wall would have tobe taken apart carefully to preserve the bricks and then carefully put back together. Good luck on finding anyone to do that for anything under £veryveryexpensive,

I would also want to source all the replacement trees myself so I got like for like and was sure they were good quality.

I wouldn't trust the ndn to do those sort of things properly. They'd skimp there if they skimped anywhere as it wouldn't directly affect them except to shave a few quid off the whole cost. That would be at your expense. So you need a bit about things being subject to your prior approval.

You need to find out how it could affect the value of your property.

Please go to a solicitor before you go any further with this.

@TreeTrials

Option 1. Say no.
If you want to cushion it because your DH needs to be kind to these CFs, give them a reason they can’t argue with. E.g. ‘we love that bit of the garden, it’s where the fairies live.’
This has the benefit of zero effort on your part.
They may not be happy but they and you are no worse off, I suspect they would get over it in time or move away.

Option 2. Sell them that piece of land for a sum of money that will cover all your costs to replace the trees, the wall, etc, AND cover all your legal costs AND give you a big sum of money to compensate you for your generosity and the hassle. And don’t allow any work until it’s paid in full.
Be aware that once contracts are signed, they may well take the piss and builds a monstrosity that overlooks your home, takes your light, etc.
This will take significant effort on your part and because of the costs and inevitable delays involved, will not please your neighbours. So bye bye friendly relationship.

Option 3. (Your current plan) string them along in the hope that someone else will say no.
This risks them going ahead and then you needing to sue them - very expensive, and wave goodbye to good relationship with them.
Or you also run the risk of them demanding to split costs incurred for exploring it with you- ‘as you agreed to look into it too’ - again solicitors costs and bye bye friendly relations.

Option 4. Agree to let them do it.
Lots of hassle for you with legal stuff to deal with and if they don’t make good and/or build something horrible and intrusive, you can wave goodbye to good relationship- because you will hate them.

Option 1 (a simple and polite no) is your only sensible choice for keeping friendly and keeping out of a legal nightmare.

I See that you're trying to be conciliatory but put them off the idea in your email but I agree it needs restructuring.

Take out the bit about you being "generally happy".
Start with the "thanks for sharing your plans, triangle etc."
Then hit them straight up with the listed status, including the wall, and they'd need permission to get that moved/changed. Point out that if it is changed without permission, then they may get forced to undo all the "damage" and put it back as it was before.
Then move onto the conservation area that includes all the trees, so they need permissions for removal/alterations.
Then go to land registry and legal issues, including mortgage company permissions (if relevant).
Then point out that all the above will be time consuming, costly and possibly futile.
At the end tell them you're happy to discuss it further with them but nothing can change until all the above are addressed.

If they haven't lost the will to live after that lot, then they should have.

Please don’t put anything in writing to your neighbours without legal advice and get the solicitor to write it for you. Even better, I agree with others that you should just say ‘no’. There is no benefit to you at all in any of this.

As you're in a conservation area, you'd probably have to use the same bricks to rebuild the wall. That means the wall would have tobe taken apart carefully to preserve the bricks and then carefully put back together. Good luck on finding anyone to do that for anything under £veryveryexpensive

I hold to my position that you shouldn't touch any of this with a bargepole but just to add to what Jux said, a neighbour of mine had to have a length of flint wall rebuilt in our conservation area some years ago. All the insurance quotes came in at tens of thousands. That isn't a typo. And it wasn't even hundreds of metres long.

Don't engage .. it's sounds like your in agreement and fine tuning the finer details.

Say NO.

I think we feel bad because our house and garden is substantially bigger than theirs

That's not how this works. You bought your home, they bought theirs. You're not required to make things more equal just to please them. Of course they want this. You'd be fools to accept. Why not give them your whole garden, they'll be really happy with you then...

You don't have to be reasonable when somebody is proposing to redraw your boundaries. You don't have to show you're a nice person and you certainly don't have to feel guilty that you have more land than them - land that you paid for. We once asked neighbour about putting in a driveway through their land and we were prepared to offer substantial money because it would have given us driveway access - we live in a hilly city and driveway access rather than a flight of steps is very valuable. We certainly weren't proposing to offer them a bit of useless land as payment. They said that they didn't want to do it and we just dropped it because we appreciated it was their choice and, to be fair, we would probably have made the same choice if we had been them. Do you think your neighbour would go the same trouble for you if you were the ones asking for a boundary adjustment? If you can't manage to say a blunt no I would simply tell them that your bank is not happy with it and end the whole discussion. Alternatively if you can't say it, get your lawyer to write a letter. I promise you that they will have no hesitation in saying it. They are used to breaking far worse news to people.

Just say no. This is the worst example of unnecessary and convoluted and irrational people-pleasing I have encountered!

OP, before you reply to your neighbour, you need to ask yourself a question: are you ready to put up with all the consequences of this if your neighbour agrees to everything?
PPs pointed out a lot of legal and other issues including with your mortgage, but are you also ready to put up with:

• hours spent talking to architect, solicitor, surveyor, your neighbours?
• hours spent to obtain all permissions? Your neighbour may pay the fees, bit you'll need to do the work.
• having to remortgage?
• any additional costs you and your neighbour haven't thought about? You're not guaranteed they'll cover them.
• potentially being unhappy with the new wall and trees?

If you go ahead with this, I see a lot of resentment in your future. You say you want to preserve good relationship with your neighbours. I think this will cause the opposite. I'd politely decline.The only way I'd even entertain the idea would be if they offered to pay a lot of money for the land.

Your husband has you wasting way too much mind space on the neighbours wishes. Asking doesn’t mean getting! Just say no!

May I suggest if he’s so concerned about being generous he find himself a volunteering role for his spare time so he can help those in actual need and not just those who bought awkward sized properties? I think he’d find it more rewarding in the long run.

This has got to be the most infuriating thread I’ve ever read. Don’t let your neighbour ruin your wall. It might not seem much to you but to some people it’s priceless.

I going completely agains the grain here but I don't see an issue in theory with saying yes. You've asked for trees to be replaced and said they are not 'great' trees there so far. It doesn't affect your garden as long as the plant/ tree parts are met, and the wall is t a historical wall per say and will be professionally rebuilt. The questions regarding the conservation area is more than reasonable and may put a stop to the whole plan. They will give you a piece of land the same size, and you already have more land so this won't hugely impact your garden. I would say yes in these circumstances- but I seem to alone in this!

I am thinking, actually, that rather than uprooting or cutting down mature trees and replacing them with 'a mature tree' (expensive, and unlikely) and doing whatever to an existing old stone wall - to please these idiots next door, and appease your husband (fuck me, they could do all this and then sell the improved house and garden six weeks later!), you should draft up an email proposing a husband swap: one mature husband, make sure you water him every evening, could easily be transplanted next door, is happy to donate a kidney also.

@TreeTrials

I'm anticipating the conversation would go 'we haven't managed to find trees the same size' or 'we haven't managed to get listed building consent' in which case they can't do it. No idea how they would do the listed building consent without us anyway!

They will undoubtedly tell you they can't source the trees, but not until after the rest of the work has been done.

You've set up a load of impossible conditions hoping they'll make the decision that it's a bad plan. But before they reach that point they will have incurred ££££ in costs. They're not going to just say OK then. By that point and neighbourly relations will be far worse if they have to accept they can't go ahead after spending a fortune than if you say no now.

Plus every stage of them trying to meet your conditions will cause work and aggravation for you.