To not swap land with my neighbour?

[TreeTrials]

Our neighbours are wanting to renovate their garage to incorporate it into their house. It sits alongside our garden boundary wall which is at an angle. Than angle makes it hard for them to do the changes they want because the room would be very narrow at the bottom.

They have previously talked to us about swapping land so they have a more regular shaped room. We expressed reluctance as we don't need the land they were offering and we have some mature bushes/trees growing out of the wall (it's a wide very old stone one). These trees and bushes provide privacy screening so that we don't see their house. If they are cut down, or die due to disturbed roots, we'll be staring at the side of their house rather than greenery. That was the end of the conversation.

They have now sent through technical drawings for their proposal and the proposed wall for the renovated garage appears be to on our land. It feels a bit cheeky given how we'd left things.

Should we let them proceed? The land is the corner of our garden and isn't used for anything useful - it's very dark and full of garden junk. I feel for them that the shape of the land makes their plans pretty hard to achieve with the boundary plan as it is.

My main concern is loss of privacy from the loss of the trees. But then I'm wondering what the situation would be if they change their plans to follow the boundary - they may still end up killing the trees as I imagine the roots will be disturbed whatever work they do. If this is going to be the case (not that I want them to kill our trees!) should we just suck it up?

I don't know for certain, but am reasonably sure the wall is ours as our house was built a long time before theirs. I've attached a very bad drawing.

YABU - it's only a small amount of land and makes their plans possible. Suck it up.

YANBU - you don't have to give away your land and lose your trees to make your neighbours' life better.

Havent read the whole thread but you can apply for pp on land you dont own. Developers do this all the time before they buy up land. It doesnt give you a legal right to build on land you dont own. It just means it wouldnt be a planning breach.

Check if you have legal expenses cover on your house insurance for neighbour / boundary issues in case this blows up in future. But no way would I be incurring solicitors costs now to help out a neighbour. If they get permission and want to go ahead then they should pay your legal costs to get advice and sort the sale / changes.

If your DH just wants a nice way out then surely all you have to say is the wall is listed so you dont think their proposal to change the wall will be possible. Its then up to them if they go away and find out if it is possible. If they dont know its listed then that in itself may be enough for them to realise this is going to be a major hassle as it will involve rebuilding the wall authentically

Plenty of people do build triangular extensions on land they do actually own.

I would be worried if they expect you to do this that they then would not stick to the pp and you may find they try and sneak a bit of extra land especially if their new extension is going to be right on the boundary.

This thread hasn't followed the usual AIBU.

They will see your email as a green light. You are basically Chamberlain and your email is that worthless bit of paper he waved. Who the hell has plans drawn up of an extension which is partially on their neighbours land, esp when said neighbour has already tried to put them off? CF, that's who! CF can't be appeased, they must be told NO in very clear terms.

If you don't want to look like the bad guys, just blame it on the listed building status.

Dear Neighbours,

Had a look at your plans, thanks for sending them over. I must point out again though that this just won't be possible. Our house, outbuildings and the wall are all listed and so it won't actually be possible to carry out any exchange of land to facilitate changing the width/angle of your proposed new room. Sorry, it's just a complete no go. We wish you luck with rejigging your design.

Yours till whiskers grow on plums, all the Georgie Best etc etc

@Penchantforfloralpatterns

So you want to say no but instead you are going to email what sounds like yes because your husband doesn’t want to seem like he is being unreasonable, hoping that after a lot of trouble and money someone else will say no? It’s utterly ridiculous, just say no.

I agree. You don’t want to do it. The end. You don’t owe anyone a lengthy explanation ! We asked to buy some land from a neighbour. He just said no. There were no hard feelings, no drama. I didn’t feel he needed to tell me why. No was enough. We are all on good terms.

@HeckyPeck

*Hi people who live next door,

I was very surprised to receive these documents as last time we discussed this I did not support the plans to swap land.

As you are aware we are in a conservation area, which includes the trees, we are concerned building work will not only remove the trees along the boundary but also the mature cherry. I addition to this our house is listed, which includes the wall.

If we were to consider your proposal then you need need to:
Source replacement mature trees (before any work commences)
Obtain all the relevant planning and altering a listed building permissions and conservation offer approval
Pay all legal costs involved, including out solicitors fees, and register the new boundary.

I think we need to talk this over as it is a very complicated situation.

This is a much better email OP. Have you looked to see what their costs might be? You could always add in that you can see that the costs they would have to meet would easily run to several thousand pounds.

I just googled mature 20ft trees for example and they don't come cheap OP! Plus there is a real risk that they won't establish.

why? ...why set condtions when this is a really really bad idea....why not just say no?

why? ...why set condtions when this is a really really bad idea....why not just say no?
This x 1000
Ffs!

This would be totally different if you lived in newer built houses and it was a simple knock down wall, inform land registry and quickly sort out any simple legal stuff. But it's not.

You've got mature trees you dont want to lose.
You've got listed building status.
You've got pushy neighbour who doesnt want to take no for an answer and seems to being pushing on ahead with these plans just assuming you'll go along with it.
Finally.... you dont want to!!!

Bloody hell OP. Just fucking say no.

You know they're going to reply with excuse after excuse and but this and but that and a, "we'll sort it love." And now that you've opened a negotiation, they've got the but between their teeth to push you to the yes, and that's what they're going to do because you and your husband aound desperate to please, desperate to be liked and terrified to say no.

ThalictrumDelavayi
This is the perfect response.

Politely tell them no and go ahead and let DH sulk about it. I'd rather deal with that than the potential financial and legal mess.
They can renovate their garage to fit in the space they have.

Being old, I've seen this a few times. Don't do it. Leads to further troubles you can't even imagine like building extensions overlooking you. Don't sell. You can't know what they or their successors would do. Just don't!

Why do I not meet people who are such bloody walkovers as the OP or am I just not enough of a CF - yup I’ll just take some land from my neighbour - cheers neighbour 😂

Or how about:
Dear Neigbour,
No.

It’s a complete sentence.

Don't be so sure - I applied for and was granted retrospective planning permission (for a building already in place) and yet I only own 50% of the land

I can't get my head around this.

If the owners of the house next door to me move away and allow their house to remain empty for a few years, surely I can't knock down the boundary fence and build a large shed at the bottom of my garden incorporating some of their land?

Planning permission is not dependent on landownership. It's a control on development type and use.
Unless you're in a conservative area or national park retrospective permission is often granted too.

It might feel immoral, but you can gain ownership of land by occupation. So yes, if you grab some land, treat it as if it's yours and the actual owner does nothing, after a set number of years you might be able to claim ownership.

You need to channel Zammo:-

So yes, if you grab some land, treat it as if it's yours and the actual owner does nothing

If the owner says no but they do it anyway? What then?
The owner engages a solicitor and sends endless letters and possibly a courtcase? This is crazy.

In Ireland The general rule is everything attached to land forms part of the land itself, and is owned by the owner of the lands. Despite the fact that the owner of the land may not have paid for it, the building is owned by the owner of the land, not you, who paid for it.

I cannot get my head around the difference in the UK.

@pinkmagnolias

It's called adverse possession (I think). If you can prove you've secured, used and maintained the land for 10 years, with no legal challenge or eviction from the owner then you can apply for and be granted ownership. It applies to abandoned houses too I think, might be wrong there.

You're quite literally mad to even consider this. Red flags everywhere! I would put money on you falling out with them if you go ahead. Just dampen the idea right down now, clearly and firmly; they might be pissed off but hopefully will get over it.
If they were my neighbours, this is what I would be writing:

Dear CF Neighbours
Thanks for sharing your plans. I must admit we were surprised to see appear to include the apparent transfer or sale of a portion of our garden.
DH and I have discussed your proposals at length this evening. While we realise our decision will impact your plans, we regret that we are not interested in selling, swapping or transferring the piece of land in question. Our home is listed and the listing includes the boundary walls of our plot so I'm afraid the plan a complete non-starter for us (and almost certainly for the local planning department too).
We trust your architect will have no problem in adapting the existing plans to something which is mutually acceptable all parties, within your own curtilage.
All the best,
Mrs TreeTrials

Don't let their desire to extend into their garage damage our national heritage, I'm begging you. The wall must be that crazy shape for some fascinating historic reason.

You need to have exclusive use too I think. So you cant be maintaining a neighbours garden while they still use it for 10 years and then they to claim the land. And the owner can oppose the application. Not as easy as it used to be.

The wall is very deep, maybe 4 ft at the base, and not in a great state. It has a 20ft laurel growing out of it.

The tree is literally growing out of the wall? And the wall is not in great shape... that would make a difference to me. Nice to have the tree but it wouldn't be long before you'd have to replace the wall because of tree root damage. Could be very expensive so I think in your situation if they were otherwise reasonable neighbours and I could trust them, I'd do what they suggest, including replacing the trees (maybe slightly further away so they don't damage the new wall). All solicitors fees to be paid by them too.

OP,

You told them No and their response was to draw up plans to apply for PP on YOUR land and you THANK them?

Truly unbelievable.

I wouldn't trust them as far as I would throw them.

They clearly are CF and have the measure of that wuss you live with.

Is their anything less attractive than a man who would be prepared to destroy the privacy of your home because a neighbour asked him.🙄

You have my sympathy OP, you really do.

Adverse possession is more difficult in Ireland. I think, I hope......
I know there have been disputes over ownership of property built by children of farmers on land that wasn't transferred legally into the children's names.

Under Section 13(2) of the Statute of Limitations a person in adverse possession acquires title after 12 years. In the case of a claim to the estate of a deceased person, under a Will or intestacy, Section 126 of the Succession Act provides that such claim is statute barred after 6 years. However, a personal representative of a deceased owner, steps into the place of that deceased owner and has 12 years to recover the property from any person in adverse possession, under Section 13(2) of the Statute of Limitations.

I would rearrange your note so that it runs like this, adding in some of the points raised in this thread. You need to assert clearly what you need to feel comfortable - no apologising for yourselves, you're within your rights to protect your property and legal position (nobody else will!).

"It was good to see your plans, thanks for sharing them in advance. Obviously the green triangle is part of our property and I assume you're proposing that we swap this for the upper triangle?

As mentioned before, we’re generally happy to do this as long as the look & feel from our side remains essentially the same. Currently (in summer at least) we have almost entire tree cover and can barely see your property. We want to keep the same outlook and privacy.

There are also some other points we’ll need to be addressed, outlined below. We’ll need to meet with you, your architect and builder to discuss these before agreeing to anything, so just let us know when would suit.

Best wishes,

Your lovely neighbours

1. PERMISSIONS Our house is listed. The listing extends to the garage, garden buildings and boundry walls. Listed buiding consent would therefore need to be obtained for any work to the wall. Having been through this process a few times there's quite a lot of time and potential cost involved in this and no guarantee that permission would be granted.

2. TREES Our houses are both in a conservation area. I believe that all trees which could potentially be affected by the work (on our land as well as yours) should be assessed by an arboricultural consultant and details submitted with any planning application. This will include our mature cherry tree as its roots may be within a protection area and not just the boundary trees. Checks will need to be made that the trees are not subject to Tree Protection Orders or similar.

3. TITLE PLANS If an exchange proceeds, the title plans will need to be redrawn and lodged at HM Land Registry. We'd both need independent legal advice on this. There may also be requirements from our mortgage company.

4. PARTY WALL I think we'd need a party wall agreement drawing up in relation to the rebuilt wall.

5. REPLACEMENT FOLIAGE We'd want all the shrubbery, trees and plants that would be lost in the works to be replaced with plants of similar maturity. At least 2 of the trees which would be affected are around 20ft high. Of these, an elder is right on the very corner of the boundary. This area looks to be part of the triangle you're hoping to utilise. We wouldn't have room to replant the elder on our side due to a patio/other planting so wonder what your proposal would be to maintain the same tree cover?

6. REPLACEMENT WALL We'd need the dry stone wall professionally rebuilding to a similar height and in-keeping with the rest of the property. As above, we'd also need to find a way to replace the lilac which is currently growing out of the wall. That could be by building a planter into the wall in some manner.

7. CLEAR BOUNDARY PLANS It's not totally clear what land you'd need as the elevational drawings you provided don't seem to include the current trees and wall. We'll need to talk through this with you and your architect so that we all know what we are dealing with and make sure plans are drawn up which include this detail to protect us both.

8. COSTS Since swapping the land is of no benefit to us, we'd need you to undertake all the processes required, pay for all costs including surveys, planning advice and legal advice (including our fees and expenses) in addition to sourcing appropriate replacement trees. We are assuming there will be some time small demands on our time, but if the time and effort required becomes onerous it may influence our willingness to proceed."