To not swap land with my neighbour?

[TreeTrials]

Our neighbours are wanting to renovate their garage to incorporate it into their house. It sits alongside our garden boundary wall which is at an angle. Than angle makes it hard for them to do the changes they want because the room would be very narrow at the bottom.

They have previously talked to us about swapping land so they have a more regular shaped room. We expressed reluctance as we don't need the land they were offering and we have some mature bushes/trees growing out of the wall (it's a wide very old stone one). These trees and bushes provide privacy screening so that we don't see their house. If they are cut down, or die due to disturbed roots, we'll be staring at the side of their house rather than greenery. That was the end of the conversation.

They have now sent through technical drawings for their proposal and the proposed wall for the renovated garage appears be to on our land. It feels a bit cheeky given how we'd left things.

Should we let them proceed? The land is the corner of our garden and isn't used for anything useful - it's very dark and full of garden junk. I feel for them that the shape of the land makes their plans pretty hard to achieve with the boundary plan as it is.

My main concern is loss of privacy from the loss of the trees. But then I'm wondering what the situation would be if they change their plans to follow the boundary - they may still end up killing the trees as I imagine the roots will be disturbed whatever work they do. If this is going to be the case (not that I want them to kill our trees!) should we just suck it up?

I don't know for certain, but am reasonably sure the wall is ours as our house was built a long time before theirs. I've attached a very bad drawing.

YABU - it's only a small amount of land and makes their plans possible. Suck it up.

YANBU - you don't have to give away your land and lose your trees to make your neighbours' life better.

@Suzi888 not in a conservation area, any trees that are pruned or cut down need permission, they don't need a TPO - it's free but it does take some time and paperwork.
We live in a conservation area and it's so annoying to get work done, even just pruning our fruit trees is a chore.

Since your DH is such a pushover my car needs replacing, any chance I can swap it for his?

Good grief. At least begin with - 'thanks for sharing your plans, I'm afraid these have raised a number of concerns for us which need addressing before we could even consider taking things further'

I would be saying no but if you want to go the reasonable route I would reduce it a bit as follows. Obviously feel free to ignore if you disagree with changes.

Thank you for letting us see a copy of your plans.

Our main concern is ensuring things from our side remain essentially the same. Currently we have almost entire tree cover and cannot see your property.

Were we to agree, all the shrubbery, trees and plants that would be lost would need to be replaced with plants of similar maturity. At least 2 of the trees which would be affected are around 20ft high. Of these, an elder is on the very corner of the boundary. This looks to be part of the triangle you're hoping to utilise. We wouldn't have room to replant the elder on our side due to a patio/other planting so would like to know what your proposal would be to maintain the same tree cover?

We would require the dry stone wall professionally rebuilt to a similar height and the lilac currently growing out of the wall replacing.

It's not clear what land you would need as the drawings provided don't include the current trees and wall. We would need to discuss all the risks with the architect and builder in advance to be clear.

As our houses are in a conservation area. all trees which could potentially be affected by the work should be assessed by an arboricultural consultant in accordance with British Standard BS5837:2012 and details submitted with any planning application. This will include our mature cherry tree as it's roots may be within a protection area and not just the boundary trees.

Our house is listed and the listing extends to the garage, garden buildings and boundary walls. Listed building consent would therefore need to be obtained for any work to the wall. Having previously been through this process we are aware of the time and potential cost involved and there is no guarantee that permission would be granted.

If all the above issues are resolved, the title plans will need to be redrawn and lodged at HM Land Registry. We would both need independent legal advice on this together with a party wall agreement drawn up in relation to the rebuilt wall.

Since swapping the land is of no benefit to us, we would require you to undertake all the processes required, pay for all the surveys, planning advice and legal advice (including our fees and expenses) in addition to sourcing appropriate replacement trees. If that is acceptable, the next step would be meeting with your architect and builder."

I think dh is right. Hopefully they’ll give up whilst maintaining neighbourly relations.

@TreeTrials

OK - I've done a first draft email. Feel free to critique but bear in mind we are on friendly enough terms and don't want to fall out over this if it can be avoided:

"It was good to see your plans, thanks for sharing them in advance. Obviously the green triangle is part of our property and I assume you're proposing that we swap this for the upper triangle?

From our perspective the triangle you're proposing to forgo is not very usable and therefore of no benefit to us. However, as mentioned before our main concern is ensuring the look & feel from our side remains essentially the same. Currently (in summer at least) we have almost entire tree cover and can barely see your property.

We've had a think about some key considerations and some questions. It's obviously helpful to get such things clear early on. Obviously we've only got the pictures you sent through to go on, so these might be covered elsewhere in your planning application.

Practical:

1. We'd want all the shrubbery, trees and plants that would be lost in the works to be replaced with plants of similar maturity. At least 2 of the trees which would be affected are around 20ft high. Of these, an elder is right on the very corner of the boundary. This area looks to be part of the triangle you're hoping to utilise. We wouldn't have room to replant the elder on our side due to a patio/other planting so wonder what your proposal would be to maintain the same tree cover?

2. We'd need the dry stone wall professionally rebuilding to a similar height. As above, we'd also need to find a way to replace the lilac which is currently growing out of the wall. That could be by building a planter into the wall in some manner.

3. It's not totally clear what land you'd need as the elevational drawings you provided don't seem to include the current trees and wall. We think it would be really helpful if we were to talk through all the risks with the architect and builder so they you, we and they know what we might be dealing with.

Legal

1. Our houses are both in a conservation area. I believe that all trees which could potentially be affected by the work (on our land as well as yours) should be assessed by an arboricultural consultant in accordance with British Standard BS5837:2012 and details submitted with any planning application. This will include our mature cherry tree as it's roots may be within a protection area and not just the boundary trees.

2. Our house is listed. The listing extends to the garage, garden buildings and boundry walls. Listed buiding consent would therefore need to be obtained for any work to the wall. Having been through this process a few times there's quite a lot of time and potential cost involved in this and no guarantee that permission would be granted.

3. If all the above issues are resolved, the title plans will need to be redrawn and lodged at HM Land Registry. We'd both need independent legal advice on this.

4. I think we'd need a party wall agreement drawing up in relation to the rebuilt wall.

Since swapping the land is of no benefit to us, we'd need you to undertake all the processes required, pay for all the surveys, planning advice and legal advice (including any of our fees and expenses) in addition to sourcing appropriate replacement trees. If all of that works for you I think the next step would be meeting with your architect and builder. "

This is too long and wordy and far too nice in the opening,

Hi people who live next door,

I was very surprised to receive these documents as last time we discussed this I did not support the plans to swap land.

As you are aware we are in a conservation area, which includes the trees, we are concerned building work will not only remove the trees along the boundary but also the mature cherry. I addition to this our house is listed, which includes the wall.

If we were to consider your proposal then you need need to:
Source replacement mature trees (before any work commences)
Obtain all the relevant planning and altering a listed building permissions and conservation offer approval
Pay all legal costs involved, including out solicitors fees, and register the new boundary.

I think we need to talk this over as it is a very complicated situation.
...........
This way you are expressing your surprise and reluctance but not saying an outright no whilst not appearing to be a complete push over

@Crankley

I would be saying no but if you want to go the reasonable route I would reduce it a bit as follows. Obviously feel free to ignore if you disagree with changes.

Thank you for letting us see a copy of your plans.

Our main concern is ensuring things from our side remain essentially the same. Currently we have almost entire tree cover and cannot see your property.

Were we to agree, all the shrubbery, trees and plants that would be lost would need to be replaced with plants of similar maturity. At least 2 of the trees which would be affected are around 20ft high. Of these, an elder is on the very corner of the boundary. This looks to be part of the triangle you're hoping to utilise. We wouldn't have room to replant the elder on our side due to a patio/other planting so would like to know what your proposal would be to maintain the same tree cover?

We would require the dry stone wall professionally rebuilt to a similar height and the lilac currently growing out of the wall replacing.

It's not clear what land you would need as the drawings provided don't include the current trees and wall. We would need to discuss all the risks with the architect and builder in advance to be clear.

As our houses are in a conservation area. all trees which could potentially be affected by the work should be assessed by an arboricultural consultant in accordance with British Standard BS5837:2012 and details submitted with any planning application. This will include our mature cherry tree as it's roots may be within a protection area and not just the boundary trees.

Our house is listed and the listing extends to the garage, garden buildings and boundary walls. Listed building consent would therefore need to be obtained for any work to the wall. Having previously been through this process we are aware of the time and potential cost involved and there is no guarantee that permission would be granted.

If all the above issues are resolved, the title plans will need to be redrawn and lodged at HM Land Registry. We would both need independent legal advice on this together with a party wall agreement drawn up in relation to the rebuilt wall.

Since swapping the land is of no benefit to us, we would require you to undertake all the processes required, pay for all the surveys, planning advice and legal advice (including our fees and expenses) in addition to sourcing appropriate replacement trees. If that is acceptable, the next step would be meeting with your architect and builder."

why? I mean why keep them on a string if you are going to say no?

If you’re serious about the letter then please show it to a solicitor first. You can get a free half hour to speak to one who deals with land. They’ll ensure it covers what you need to say to the neighbours. And give you further advice.

Honestly, short letter saying no or they agree to pay your legal fees upfront.

Don't get into the detail. This is their problem. Don't let it be yours.

@TreeTrials

Thanks for all the input. I do appreciate it - even from the people who think we're mad not to say a straight no! I need to discuss with DP and come up with a plan.

Frankly, TreeTrials, that should be "especially from the people who think we're mad." They all have your best interest in mind, & you seem to be a little laid-back about some genuinely horrendous potential outcomes.

You are setting yourselves up to get dragged into this potty scheme despite your "expressed reservations", all the downsides to you even in the unlikely event it all goes swimmingly, & ghastly, protracted & costly legal wrangles when if it all goes tits up.

You're fully able to articulate your feelings about this swap here on MN, & they are all negative. Even DH's 'reason' of "not wanting to look like a twat" is a negative. You want to say no, but feel unable to say so in real life. Why is that?

I hope the neighbours finally realise that their plan is an onerous & costly process which is not worth their while. Because I think your fear of saying "no thanks" is greater than your appreciation of how rotten this could go.

Also, everything @Mrgrinch said, in every post.
Good luck.

@Doris86

Entirely your choice. If you don’t want to sell / swap your land then don’t.

If you do decide to do it though, make sure the change is properly done through a solicitor and the deeds of the house are amended.

Absolutely this!

As a PP mentioned, just "swapping" bits of land could cause no end of problems if you wanted to sell at some time in the future.

If you do it, do it properly and professionally - and they pay for it, as they are the ones who want it.

Even if consent could be obtained, and if you were willing to cut and sell a bit off your listed property, it sounds as if it would be more hassle and cost way more than it was worth.

Honestly, this sounds so stressful, full of so many pitfalls and would most likely end in conflict which will be far greater than that caused by a simple no. The longer you engage with these discussions, the more expectation and entitlement will develop.
Why on earth would you consider this?

@TreeTrials

I'm anticipating the conversation would go 'we haven't managed to find trees the same size' or 'we haven't managed to get listed building consent' in which case they can't do it. No idea how they would do the listed building consent without us anyway!

They can’t. But once you give them your consent, if they then fuck it up, it’ll be you and your DH liable as the people who allowed the damage to be ‘caused’ to a listed building - along with any builder - which is a criminal offence, with a possible custodial sentence or an unlimited fine.

@Clymene

Honestly, short letter saying no or they agree to pay your legal fees upfront.

Don't get into the detail. This is their problem. Don't let it be yours.

even shorter letter saying "sorry no"

@TreeTrials

If this was just my call I'd say 'sorry that doesn't work for me' but DH is pretty clear that he wants to pass the ball back to them to show that it's not going to work from a financial or hassle perspective. On that basis I'm trying to draft something which achieves that.

Your DH is assuming they'll act like normal decent people. Given the CFery they have already shown, they'll pick holes in any argument you can rustle up.

You just need to tell them that after consideration, you don't want to do this. If you try to explain why you don't want to do it, they will come up with counter proposals to force your hand into agreeing.

That they have come up with drawings, etc, after your original polite no just shows they are not going to give up easily unless you are very firm in saying NO.

Dont send that long rambling email. Just say that they will need to draw up new plans that do not steal your land!!

If ots listed you will need advjce as to whether its even possible. If it is and you are willing to make some sort of deal with them then go through a solicotor who is experienced in this sort of thing.

Whatever they agree, they may not follow through. They are already coming across as not the easiest people to deal with.

Also I should add that if you have a mortgage you will probably need to get your lender to agree as well.

@HeronLanyon

Anyone else feel like starting a sit in to protect this listed ancient wall and mature trees fro what feels like impending disasterous vandalism? Not for op who it seems (sorry if I’ve got this wrong) is now saying contradictory things but just because it’s ancient and listed. I could weep. Op protect what you have and what your first post said you valued (let alone the value put on it by national listing!)

Yes. Personally, I think it’s far more twattish to start messing about with (destroying) old walls and trees than refusing to consider swapping land with your neighbour.

The reason we have listing for buildings and conservation areas is to protect heritage for the public as a whole. It’s not just about what’s convenient or fashionable for the current owner.

The decision is entirely yours and they cannot force you to give up the current boundary. If you do go ahead you should clearly legally redefine the new boundaries on your deeds so that there is no difficulty when/ if you decide to sell.
You should also clearly set out the reparations for the removal of the wall, what is rebuilt in its place, ( fence/ wall re-using the stone etc.) the type, height, material specification. Replacement and ongoing landscaping.
Perhaps include a covenant to ensure that nothing can be built on the new area of land if it will affect the value of your property.
Get all the work, legal and building done at their expense too.
Much better that it as all agreed and signed on before work rather than a verbal agreement so that your relationship does not get destroyed in protracted arguments later.

No way would I agree to this. Also no way would I write such a long letter. This is not your problem.

I'm really sorry op but your husband sounds like a wet drip of a push over. Please just say, "no thank you. Please only build on your side." Why does he feel unable to say this? Genuinely don't understand his need to fall over himself with niceness about this situation. It will affect your boundary line, mortgage, deeds and future sale. Why do all that for the sake of being nice?!

@TreeTrials

Re the wall - it's a short, ramshackled thing not of any great merit (except the stones are old). It's not visible from the road. It's barely visible from our garden (bushes etc in the way) and it's not visible from the neighbours as their run down garage sits alongside it. Have it moved and rebuilt won't affect the value of our property at all.

I doubt Historic England would consider a listed dry stone wall to be a ‘ramshackle thing not of any great merit’. The chances of them allowing it to be demolished and rebuilt are vanishingly small - especially as some of it will clearly not be able to be rebuilt. And, if they allowed it to be rebuilt it would likely be because they felt it’s current ‘ramshackle’ state to be of a significant danger to health and safety and it would have to be rebuilt exactly the same - ie four foot base in the same location and angle and length. And even then, most external alterations to Listed Buildings on H and S grounds are rejected anyway if the parts of the building concerned can be cordoned off from the public/those in danger. I’m surprised you seem so convinced this wall has no intrinsic value with regard to your property. I think you’re very wrong.

People promise to build community centres that never happen to get planning permission. What makes you think your trees will actually be replaced, even if that's what's agreed?

The disputes coming because they haven't made good as you wanted will be way worse than the ones from you just saying no now.

I was once asked similar. The answer is just no. No explanation. Just no