Considering a 5 hours per day school run

[Cactusowl]

My son has been offered a place at a lovely school which is around an hour away. It’s an independent SEN school and will suit him so much better than his current mainstream.
We are taking our council to a tribunal in the hope they will name the school on my sons EHCP and therefore pay the fees/taxi. The court date isn’t set until October. I have the option to pay for the school myself so he can start in September, I will have to drive him myself for a minimum of half a term or max 3 years if we lose our appeal.

Has anyone done a long school run like this? Was it manageable and did it get any easier? AIBU to even consider this journey is sustainable?

I know of at least two SENDist hearing that were rescheduled at short notice during lockdown

@ByeClare, that's not what the tribunal says. I suspect those hearings were rescheduled for reasons other than the tribunal being too busy, e.g. non-availability of witnesses, the cases not being ready for a hearing.

By October we should possibly be out of lockdown, which may mean that in-person hearings get postponed again.

The tribunal has made it clear that online hearings will still be the norm after lockdown unless there is a particular reason for wanting an in-person hearing. If OP's hearing has been listed as a remote hearing that won't be changed without a very good reason. They have done a lot of judge recruitment since the period before lockdown when late postponements were a particular problem, so the likelihood of a recurrence is pretty small.

If the tribunal decides that this is the only suitable school, then the LA will have no choice but to arrange transport because its duty is to provide transport to the nearest suitable school

This is not the full truth as an absolute statement. The child’s SEND and the distance are relevant; yes in this case they will have to provide it going by what the OP has said, but it’s not a sure fire bet for all. Part id the issue here is that the considerable cost of the transport will be a factor in whether it’s considered suitable, as it may cost an awful lot more than the school the LA considered suitable. Which presumably is his current one. Which again begs my earlier point, whether the LA has tried to get the school currently named in the EHCP to provide what they’re supposed to

You have conflated two different issues. The tribunal takes into account two things - cost, and whether the school is able to meet needs. If it were to decide that both the current school and OP's school can meet needs, then certainly OP is highly unlikely to win because a mainstream school will be cheaper even before you take transport into account. However, if they decide that the current school (or any alternative the LA might nominate) cannot meet needs, then it is very likely indeed to name OP's school. What the tribunal absolutely cannot do is to decide that a school which cannot meet needs must nevertheless be named because the alternative is expensive. Being cheap can't in itself make a school suitable.

We don't know whether the LA has tried to make the current school comply with the EHCP - I suspect they have, not least because they've got an appeal to deal with. They wouldn't have decided to ignore the issue knowing that it would destroy their case.

But equally we don't know whether the current EHCP is adequate and properly sets out the provision OP's child needs. Generally speaking, LAs draft EHCPs very badly and don't get adequate advice and information when assessing what is needed. If, for instance, OP's evidence demonstrates to the tribunal's satisfaction that her child needs specialist provision of a type which the current school cannot provide under any circumstances - e.g. smaller classes, specialist teachers, on-site therapies etc - then again the tribunal will not be able to name the current school.

Mine goes to a specialist SEN school and many families do make this sort of commitment and find it worthwhile such is the benefit of going to the right school. Many get SEN transport from more than an hour away and cope too. It is so worth it for the right school. Parents evenings are likely to stay virtual now, in any case we've always had them straight after pickup time so no one has to come back in the evening as the school is fully aware of the distances for many families. Many families move to be near the school too. We are fortunate enough to already live fairly close but I would do that journey if I had to.

Some posters on here don't understand that it is extremely, extremely difficult to find SEN school for children who have SEN. There's hardly any around as it is and the good ones a very few and far between. Society has low expectation of special needs and some state special needs school and a few private ones too have low expectation and children come out no worse than they were and very very low academic attainment.

FYI, you don't get those years back and a school can make the difference to a child. You would not like the journey but you will get used to it. The posters on here who are telling you to forget the school all together would not be holding your hand when your child is 16. Do what's best for you and your child. Also, if you move boroughs, you would run the risk of the new LA not paying for the school.

@Zzelda, thank you for taking the time to post - you’re being really helpful.

We are appealing sections B and F as well as I. Even if the tribunal don’t agree to our specialist placement DS will at least have a very clear, specific and quantified EHCP (which will be too time consuming and expensive for mainstream to follow).

@Zzelda I hadn’t conflated two issues. I was pointing out that your statement about transport wasn’t fully correct, and then I went on to make a separate point. Of course it doesn’t just come down to the cheapest school, but it does come down to effective use of expenses.

I know how EHCPs and tribunals work, I won our appeal and my child is at an independent school. I can assure you that my LA have a reputation for not doing the sensible thing, even if it’s in their own best interests. So on that basis it wouldn’t surprise me if the OP’s LA hadn’t tried (hard enough) to get the current school to put existing provisions in place. The OP basically implied in a post that it was difficult to get the LA to do this.

It sounds like the OP’s son isn’t making sufficient progress at his current school, which is one of the reasons a tribunal would regard as necessitating a new school named. I sincerely hope she gets what her son needs. I think though that it would probably be unwise to move her son until the appeal has been and won, unless the OP is fully prepared to pay the fees and do the journey for however many years.

There back, there back

I forgot about the drive back 😂

Hi Op,

I have read your posts but not the whole thread so apologies if this has already been covered.

My DC is perhaps a similar age to yours. They moved schools last year to an independent school which, whilst not SEN specific, supports students with a range of SEN. The change in them is extraordinary. They like learning, mostly engaged, have a full curriculum including several GCSEs and most of all are happy. So a good school makes all the difference.

They moved from an independent specialist SEN school which failed them miserably but that is not the point of my post.

Children from Year 4 to 6th form traveled for hours to go to that school from several counties around. Most parents knew the school wasnt perfect but it was the best available. Approx 70% EHCPs - rest funded privately. I knew families who fought for funding for taxis, others used the school's minibuses, others boarded and one family I knew employed a nanny - her only job was to take the charge to school daily and collect - that was 5 hrs per day driving. I am not sure what other work she did back at home. My journey to take DC on a Monday and collect on a Friday was a round trip each time of 2 1/2 - 3 hours. When I returned to work some days I would drive over 120 miles for school run then to work and then back home again.

It is doable in the short-term - perhaps 1-2 years, providing you dont have other commitments. My employer actually wrote into my T&Cs that I would be late into the office every other Monday and then how the time would be made up. #stressful You mention 3 years maximum - I think that is OK. The travel time of 60-75 mins is OK for that age group - single trip. My DC used to fall asleep on the way home - they were so stressed and relieved to be out of the place.

There is an organisation that helps with travel claims - is it SENDIASS?

Hope it works out for you all.

@ByeClare, I've helped with several appeals and have also attended conferences at which the lead Tribunal Judge has spoken. What I said about transport was absolutely correct. If a school can't meet needs, the tribunal is simply not going to name it no matter how expensive the alternative may be. Very, very occasionally they will decide not to name either the LA's or the parent's choice of school because they decide the parent's school is overprovision, but that is vanishingly rare. If the LA doesn't bother to tell the current school to up its game, that's all the better in terms of OP's chances.

As OP realistically acknowledges, nothing is guaranteed. However it is near-inevitable that if she loses in terms of the school place the EHCP will be improved. If that means the mainstream school becomes even more useless, she may indeed achieve what she wants when they give up.

There is an organisation that helps with travel claims - is it SENDIASS?

I think it's called SENTAS.

[quote Zzelda]@ByeClare, I've helped with several appeals and have also attended conferences at which the lead Tribunal Judge has spoken. What I said about transport was absolutely correct. If a school can't meet needs, the tribunal is simply not going to name it no matter how expensive the alternative may be. Very, very occasionally they will decide not to name either the LA's or the parent's choice of school because they decide the parent's school is overprovision, but that is vanishingly rare. If the LA doesn't bother to tell the current school to up its game, that's all the better in terms of OP's chances.

As OP realistically acknowledges, nothing is guaranteed. However it is near-inevitable that if she loses in terms of the school place the EHCP will be improved. If that means the mainstream school becomes even more useless, she may indeed achieve what she wants when they give up.[/quote]
I wasn't denying that what you last said about transport was absolutely correct. I was quite clearly referring to an earlier comment you made that wasn't correct.

Yes the hearing will likely result in an improvement of some sort for the OP's DS, which is obviously A Good Thing. Did anyone suggest it wasn't? You - and the OP for that matter - seem to be taking the view as if I and others are arguing about the quality of the hearing, and ignoring all the useful points others and I made in response to the OP's actual questions about the journey. You may have helped with appeals and been to conferences, but unless you actually have a child with SEND and had to provide for their needs as well as actually fight for them, you may not be so hot on the actual ground-level practicalities. Neither the OP nor you have responded to comments that the OP's hope/plan/suggestion that her DS be added to the LA's current taxi route may not be feasible. She has not said how he may be affected by having other kids in the cabs or delays in traffic or going a particularly long route to drop others off. These are reasonable concerns when you have a child with ASD and ADHD, as I do and the OP does, so it's very useful for the OP that these are raised for her to consider, even if she chooses not to acknowledge them or thank those posters.

The LA may have a duty to provide transport, but the type of transport is dependent on needs and distance. It may be in the form in a taxi to himself that goes straight there and straight back, but it equally may not.

@ByeClaire I’m very grateful to everyone who has posted. DS does indeed have ASD/ADHD and other needs too as do some of the other children at the school - the school is specific to another learning need. I’m not so worried about how DS will be in a taxi as I know he will just put his headphones to listen to his phone. There may be a chance that the children in the taxi clash meaning that they can’t travel together but I’m optimistic knowing DS and the general profile of the children that go to that school.

@ByeClare, you claimed that the statement "If the tribunal decides that this is the only suitable school, then the LA will have no choice but to arrange transport because its duty is to provide transport to the nearest suitable school" wasn't "the full truth", but you were mistaken. It's a simple fact that local authorities have to provide transport to the nearest suitable school, and if the tribunal has decided that X independent school must be named in the EHCP then that is a finding that that is the nearest suitable school.

In talking about points made about the length of the journey, you are shifting the discussion to something I didn't contest. I was simply correcting some misconceptions put forward about the relevant legal duties and the tribunal. And what on earth makes you assume I don't have a child with SEN? You're mistaken.

If OP's child is entitled to transport but can't be added to the existing taxi route (including because he can't cope with sharing), then the LA will have to organise another taxi or means of transport. Again, transport can't be refused for that reason.

It's exhausting. I did two schools so left at 7.50 and got home earliest 9.20 then evening worse as used free sports clubs/ library to enable the pick up so left at three back at 4.30 or left at 2.50 and back at 5.

A three hour a day school run was really hard.

Though the actual route would factor in. Mine was town centre traffic, lots of roundabouts and slip roads and traffic lights and scissor junctions, congested secondary school traffic in narrow double parked streets for part of it with lots of idiot drivers. The bit out towards the primary school was less bad.

[quote Cactusowl]@ByeClaire I’m very grateful to everyone who has posted. DS does indeed have ASD/ADHD and other needs too as do some of the other children at the school - the school is specific to another learning need. I’m not so worried about how DS will be in a taxi as I know he will just put his headphones to listen to his phone. There may be a chance that the children in the taxi clash meaning that they can’t travel together but I’m optimistic knowing DS and the general profile of the children that go to that school.[/quote]
My girl is ASD. Gets in a taxi with 2 other children from her SEN school. They enjoy the ride and support each other if ones having a tough morning/afternoon. It's nice to see her with other children who just get it x

[quote Cactusowl]@ByeClaire I’m very grateful to everyone who has posted. DS does indeed have ASD/ADHD and other needs too as do some of the other children at the school - the school is specific to another learning need. I’m not so worried about how DS will be in a taxi as I know he will just put his headphones to listen to his phone. There may be a chance that the children in the taxi clash meaning that they can’t travel together but I’m optimistic knowing DS and the general profile of the children that go to that school.[/quote]
My DC has similar needs. Their statement specifically states they are not to travel with another pupil.
You simply cannot assume.
That said, the LEA must provide you transport if that is your DS named school, so that isn't a worry really. Though if you establish from day 1 you can drive him they may push you to continue with a milage allowance - which with other children in other schools I would not accept for obvious reasons.

My ds has autism / adhd & has to have a separate taxi with escort despite the same taxi company doing several other children to the same school all with same diagnosis’s, the driver on the first day couldn’t understand why ds was on his own and not sharing another taxi until he dropped him off at the end of that first day

In my LA If there's an existing route the pupil can go on you would be offered a much lower mileage allowance, I think 11p.

There isn't an existing one for my son and the LA wanted to pay me mileage, but I couldn't do it.

My LA named a mainstream (not our nearest) but tribunal concluded they couldn't meet needs despite them saying they could. The evidence I got from a SAR to his old school was very significant

The point I was making @Zzelda is that the blanket statement you made about an LA having to provide home to school transport to a child with an EHCP is not correct - it depends on eligibility. It depends on the individual needs of the child and it also depends on distance. Many children with EHCPs don't receive assistance with transport. Some children with EHCPs will walk to school if their school is near enough. Some are able to take the bus or other forms of public transport, and the LA may provide them with a bus pass but will not have a duty to provide taxi services or pay for mileage. It depends on the LA's policy.

With children with ASD and ADHD for example, there's a huge range. My child with both is able to take public transport and wants to, so does. There was a time when for time-specific reasons they were unable, and then I was given money to pay for a cab.

I didn't assume you don't have a child with SEN, I wondered if you have had to navigate the tribunal and directly navigate with the LA about transport regarding your own child. You seem to think that because the law states X, then that will happen immediately and simply. In practice, this is not the case; transport issues are much more complicated than that. As you no doubt know, transport provisions rarely get added into an EHCP. So it's something that the parent then has to arrange with the LA directly.

Case in point about issues in practice:

If OP's child is entitled to transport but can't be added to the existing taxi route (including because he can't cope with sharing), then the LA will have to organise another taxi or means of transport. Again, transport can't be refused for that reason.

No transport can't be refused for that reason. But taking your example of a situation where the OP's child can't cope with sharing -
It would be very rare for that to be written into the EHCP. For a start, it would need to be known. More likely, should this be the case, it won't be found out until the OP's child is in a taxi with others and then it's discovered that sharing is not suitable. The OP would then have to go to the time and effort of demonstrating that and getting the LA to arrange a solo taxi, rather than instead provide money for mileage and making her drive him. Not insurmountable, and obviously not something to put the OP off the whole process, but hugely draining and often difficult when you're in that situation.

The journey isn't sustainable.

It's a barely acceptable travel time for your child - 1h15 mins each way. Children must have non-stressful transport to school and journey times of more than about an hour are usually considered to be too long. Can the journey reliably be done in that time or are there days when it takes much longer? If it can't be, you're better off thinking about moving closer to the school (not without its complications if you're moving to a different LA area) / considering a residential placement there if available / looking at similar schools closer to home (if any exist).

It's generally a bad idea to enable a child to start at your preferred school prior to a Tribunal hearing - it can give the impression to the Tribunal that you can afford the placement (when often that's really not the case) and in these times of austerity/LAs having limited funds, can set them against your case. That wouldn't be said openly and would never appear in a decision, but it's worth bearing in mind. From the perspective of success in the case, it's better your child attends either his current school or is at home until after the case has been decided.

"@independentfriend

The journey isn't sustainable. It's a barely acceptable travel time for your child - 1h15 mins each way. Children must have non-stressful transport to school and journey times of more than about an hour are usually considered to be too long."

It really isnt considered too long for a secondary school special needs placement. My DC were placed at their prior school through a private court order and we argued the journey time as a con vs moving to a location closer to a different school. The judge wouldnt hear that evidence with any serious consideration. People are always quoting the "guidance " on travel times - it is meaningless.

The point I was making @Zzelda is that the blanket statement you made about an LA having to provide home to school transport to a child with an EHCP is not correct

If I had said that it would indeed be incorrect, @ByeClare. However, I didn't. I said the LA would have to provide transport if the tribunal decided that OP's choice was the only suitable school. Given the distance of the school from OP's home, none of the scenarios you refer to apply.

I didn't assume you don't have a child with SEN, I wondered if you have had to navigate the tribunal and directly navigate with the LA about transport regarding your own child.

You said "unless you actually have a child with SEND and had to provide for their needs as well as actually fight for them, you may not be so hot on the actual ground-level practicalities." I've had to do all of that. What was the point of posting it if you accepted that I might have a child with SEND?

You seem to think that because the law states X, then that will happen immediately and simply

Where did I say that? I said that the LA would have no choice but to provide transport if the school was named as the only suitable school, which is correct. Of course no-one can guarantee that the LA won't try to evade the law, but ultimately it can be forced to comply relatively easily. Transport doesn't go into the EHCP unless it's educational provision, but it is a statutory duty imposed on the LA.

Is moving home out of the question?
Sadly I don't think you can have it all ways

But taking your example of a situation where the OP's child can't cope with sharing - It would be very rare for that to be written into the EHCP. For a start, it would need to be known. More likely, should this be the case, it won't be found out until the OP's child is in a taxi with others and then it's discovered that sharing is not suitable. The OP would then have to go to the time and effort of demonstrating that and getting the LA to arrange a solo taxi, rather than instead provide money for mileage and making her drive him. Not insurmountable, and obviously not something to put the OP off the whole process, but hugely draining and often difficult when you're in that situation.

It may or may not be known: it depends on the evidence - often for a child with an EHCP that sort of difficulty has become clear in school or through something like an occupational therapy assessment. Sure, the parent would need to get the evidence if it did not already exist. But again the fact that it might be difficult to get an LA to comply with its legal duty doesn't change that duty.

One thing is clear, it is not open to any LA to refuse to arrange transport and insist that the parent drives their child, even on the basis that they pay mileage. It has no power whatsoever to do so. It may be that in practical terms OP would have to do that whilst gathering the evidence, but that's a different point.

Children must have non-stressful transport to school and journey times of more than about an hour are usually considered to be too long

Official government guidance is that, for a child of secondary school age, 75 minutes each way is generally the maximum. However, it recognises that there are circumstances where it may be necessary to go above that, notably because there may not be a suitable school any closer.