S@“t has hit the fan. What would you do?

[Whotsithitthefan]

NC as outing. Long time poster.

I can’t sleep. DH had left. Sleeping in the car somewhere I think. DM here staying. DC being bullied at school and so is being a nightmare at home. Once he’s talked about what’s going on he’s fine but while he’s holding it all in, quite frankly, he’s a grumpy thug.

DH approach is long lectures. Reminding DC of past difficult behaviour. Criticising. Telling off. He takes it very personally when DC insults him or is rude to him. Won’t let it go.

I tend to try and listen first as there is always a context and then discuss the difficult behaviour once things are calm and I think DC can reflect.

Tonight DC was acting up. I stayed out of it as DH doesn’t like me taking over and finds it undermining if I offer a different approach. He wants me to back him up but I can’t because I feel like DC would then feel the whole world was against him/her and I don’t want to join in the critical lecture and when I do try and back DH up things just escalate anyway.

So I focused tonight on clearing up and left DH and DC to it. Meanwhile I don’t realise that DM is finding the way DH is talking to DC unbearable. She had told me earlier and I had a bit of a moan as I’m finding it hard.

I then hear really raised voices. DM shouting at DH that he is abusing DC with his criticism and domineering. She’s very upset. He’s really angry with her. DC joining in.

I stood between them and just repeated ‘time out’ over and over. DH kept going and going. When I kept saying time out DC would join in and told DH he’s a psycho. DH finally left and I managed to get DC calm and to sleep.

I’m in bed but can’t sleep as I can see it from all angles and have no clue what to do.

DC ‘full up’ emotionally and feeling particularly got at by DH. Deliberately pushes him because he knows he loses the plot and is testing him. The behaviours need addressing but also DC is a child and is overwhelmed at the moment.

DH is feeling blamed by me and unsupported by me. Feels like I get in the way of their relationship and turn DC against him because I’ll stick up for DC if I feel DH is out of order. I have been trying to stay out of it but it’s hard when it’s a child getting it in the neck. Tonight I stayed out of it apart from ‘time out’ when it was getting too heated. DH is sleeping in his car somewhere refusing to ever talk to my DM ever again. Wants us out of the house tomorrow at one point so he can change for work. Telling me I’m toxic and causing him MH issues (I can be quite critical to be fair) but I feel he’s the one whose being toxic to DC who should be the priority.

DM now in bits because she thinks she’s ‘ruined my life’.

Have today tried to be calm and have supported both DC and DM with their stuff. Feeling too cross with DH to support him much but am worried about him.

Feel like no one is supporting me. I hold the emotional stuff for them all but what about me? AIBU to wish there was someone in my life that was calm and steady to ‘hold’ things together.

How do I handle things tomorrow? I’ll have to do the school run so ‘brave face’ on. Then I know DM will be distraught. God knows if DH will get in touch.

Just needed to get this out and hope someone is awake and had some advice. I need to get some sleep.

[Sunnyjac]

I agree Dances. No point in going on about
something over and over. If it doesn’t work
the first 20 times it’s unlikely to on the 21st.
I agree with DH that DC needs to learn less
aggressive ways of expressing
overwhelming emotions but his approach
isn’t working.

In this regard I feel like I’m in the same position, DH still wedded to warnings and consequences, which for our DD11 have zero effect. I’m currently reading The Explosive Child by Ross Greene (recommended by a lovely mumsnetter) and I have high hopes of finding a more successful way of helping her to manage her emotions. Your child is young and I would definitely be taking the same approach as you, when they’re emotionally aroused nothing gets through and your DH’s approach of shouting and laying down the law will fall on deaf ears but the resentment of your child to this will be what remains.

Agree that DM needs to go out/leave, even if just for a while. Hold it together for now, focus on getting DC off to school. Regarding the bullying at school, if you haven’t already, arrange to speak to the FLO and/or ELSA (if class teacher isn’t doing anything) about what’s happening and get them onto it. Escalate if that doesn’t work. Check the school’s bullying policy (should be on the website) and hold them to it. These are primary aged kids, the school should be able to manage them.

With you and DH, try and speak to him if possible, explain what you said about your approach and why it’s important to let your DC calm down before addressing behaviour. Read the book I suggest, it is very clear in saying that you are not abandoning rules or expectations for behaviour, just that you’re finding other ways to achieve your goals with your DC. I hope you can get your DH onto your page. He wants you to back him up, how about he does the same for you?

[Quartz2208]

So you have moved recently (because he wanted too?) and your child is struggling to settle into his new school (understandably so) and he way is lecturing him (I genuinely like a lot of others thought you were talking about a 15/16 year old) and no one can question him because it is disrespecting him.

Of course your mum stepped in - it sounds like it would be something if he did in public.

And how can DC learn a different approach if your DH wouldnt. You seem to live in a world where he has the rights

[Juststopasking]

Your thug of a husband should be on bended knee apologising to you, your mother and most importantly your child for bullying and abusing all of you before he should be allowed back in the house. If at all. He's an inadequate little shit. What the hell father figure have you had in your life if you think that him going on at your child the way he did, and then verbally abusing your mother makes him a good dad. He's a fucking awful dad and he's bullying your child while you stand by and do nothing. Theres no way on this earth your mum should apologize for standing up for a child who was being bullied by his own father. Someone needs to stand up for him and you aren't doing it!

[PiersPlowman]

So much aggro coming from all directions in this relationship, OP. It seems like you are dealing with two children. Husband needs to buck up his ideas or get lost.

[Sunnyjac]

Just read all your comments, agree that your DH definitely needs to bend more to your way, his language and approach are inappropriate and unhelpful to your child.

The thing is his mum noticed it when she
was here too but she said it to me not him...

Then she needs to speak to him direct! He’s her son, can she not say that to him? If not then maybe her parenting has contributed to his approach.

Definitely support your DC and keep doing what you’re doing.

[Trethew]

I’d be very worried that if you split in this crisis situation DC might perceive it as his fault, and that could be a burden on him for years to come

[ViceLikeBlip]

I've come to believe that our generation has taken "never undermine your partner" too seriously. Sometimes there are circumstances and ways in which you can/should undermine your partner.

It sounds to me like you did the exact right thing here in just trying to de-escalate the situation without directly contradicting your husband. For me personally, my loyalties lie with my child over my husband (I know this is very controversial! But I will never let my child see me stand by and watch while they get treated unfairly/bullied)

[Babyiskickingmyribs]

Definitely one to bring up during counseling, but; do you think your husband can differentiate between respect and fear? He wants your child to respect him, and show respect, but his discipline methods sound like they will result in his child fearing him and pretending to show respect. I mean, that probably describes your attitude to him right? How would he take it if you suggested doing a parenting course together?

[Whotsithitthefan]

Thank you to everyone who responded. It’s really helped to have this mirror held up. I only managed a couple of hours sleep so not feeling great.

I have stepped in a few times in a very robust way and DH has felt shame and hated it in the moment but then has listened and adjusted. I was very loudly and assertively saying ‘time out’ last night rather than meekly. I repeated on broken record as it felt best not to say anything more complicated.

DH is trying to change. He is doing an online parenting course that is good. I’m doing it too but to be honest on good days I’m pretty much there. My growth is looking after myself more so I’m resourced enough to do it well more often.

I think I have become powerless more recently. DH has been so adamant that me not backing him up, ‘appeasing’ DC, ‘letting him get away with it’ is causing the behaviours that I’ve lost my confidence in my own parenting. It’s because there is truth there. I do sometimes let quite rude/aggressive behaviour go because it doesn’t bother me - it doesn’t push my buttons. I’ll see a tired, hangry, overwhelmed little boy and respond in that way with the full intention of then going back to the behaviour when DC can process but my memory is crap (hormones) so I sometimes forget. I’m working on this. And sometimes (not often) I lose my temper too and shout too so am a ‘hypocrite’ for telling DH not to according to DH.

DS is very strong willed and will dig his heels in. Sometimes I can get around it with assertion or distraction but sometimes he just refuses. Currently it’s clear that his refusals are to do with the bullying. Last night he used the ‘f’ word and called DH a psycho so it is quite extreme but during calmer times he is delightful.

DHs father was raised by a very very critical mother. He is very critical. DH mother was also/is still quite conditional in her love. It’s very practical love but she’s been pretty cold to him at times. DH sees this and wants to be different but falls into it. I’m critical too but with DH rather than DC. DH is feeling like I don’t appreciate what he does. He does the bulk of the child care and housework as he works far less at the moment for a variety of reasons not to do with him. I am critical of him (my actual view is quite arrogant. I think I could do it all a lot better than him and it frustrates me that I need to work and can’t take over) daily. I’m trying not to. I come from a long line of critical women (DM included) and it’s hard to not get into that mode.

So all in all both me and DH are battling to do things differently to how things were for us as children. I think I’ve lost respect for DH and he feels it.

I’m not going to ask DM to apologise. You are all right she did the right thing but in an unhelpful way.

One thing I’m struggling with is the word ‘abuse’. DH’s behaviour might fall into that category at times (when he calls DS names for example) but is giving a long but respectful lecture that the DC can’t get out of abuse? It’s horrible to see and doesn’t work but is it abuse?

Going to have a shower, get myself ‘ready’ and do the best I can to get DS off to school happy. Then I’ll text DH later in a kind but assertive way to let him know that this isn’t all me and that his behaviour is not ok.

[WarriorN]

If your Dh is actually keen to help his ds, he needs to read and absorb a book like How to Talk to Kids so they Listen and how to Listen so they'll talk. (Works on husbands too.)

Dh had a prison warden father and has a tendancy to be a bit like that (when ds was a toddler!!) but I've had to loose my shit with him (not proud but it worked) and really make the point he's making things worse.

Luckily ds is extremely well behaved now. And Dh listens to me (I'm a teacher of children with semh!)

I absolutely could see the damage he could do to ds early on. I explained that I do not condone his approaches so I can't back him up, and actually think they're doing more harm than good.

If there's any way this can be communicated to him in therapy, that would be great. This cant be done in the heat of the moment as you saw last night.

He needs to only be doing the nice stuff and let you manage the other stuff.

"If you don't listen to the little things when they're little, they won't tell you the big stuff when they're big."

[WarriorN]

Oh yes - your Dh isn't backing you up, actually. Turn the tables.

But you don't throw a tantrum....

Make that point.

[WarriorN]

The thing is his mum noticed it when she was here too but she said it to me not him...

She needs to tell him. Soon as.

Many 💐

[33feethighandrising]

Your DH is bullying your child, you, and everyone around him.

He feels undermined and unsupported? Well, so he should because his approach is abusive.

You are also being undermined by him, because he's not respecting your parenting approach.

The way he is parenting is damaging your child.
Well done your mum for sticking up for your son, someone had to.

I'm sorry but he probably won't change. He's the kind of man who believes he should get his own way and is angry if people challenge him.

You need to protect your DS and stop pussy footing around this bully. He is a grown man, your DS is a child and needs you to advocate for him.

[Clickbait]

Another book I'd recommend is The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read. It explains why we tend to repeat the parenting patterns we experienced ourselves, despite our expressed wish to be different.

I agree with other posters that not undermining your DH must take second place to protecting your DC.

[Juststopasking]

"One thing I’m struggling with is the word ‘abuse’. DH’s behaviour might fall into that category at times (when he calls DS names for example) but is giving a long but respectful lecture that the DC can’t get out of abuse? It’s horrible to see and doesn’t work but is it abuse?"

If a man shut his wife in a room so he could give her a long lecture about all the ways she was letting him down and failing to perform as he wanted her to perform, not letting her leave and calling her names - that would certainly be emotional abuse. Why is it different because he's a child? Your gut tells you its horrible to see - why aren't you listening to your instincts here?

Sounds like your son has got the measure of his father with the psycho comment. That poor child is being bullied at school and at home and nobody is sticking up for him. No wonder his behaviour is escalating.

[Deathsquito]

I am critical of him (my actual view is quite arrogant. I think I could do it all a lot better than him and it frustrates me that I need to work and can’t take over) daily. I’m trying not to. I come from a long line of critical women (DM included) and it’s hard to not get into that mode.

Op all this navel gazing is just keeping you from taking the proper action to care for your son.

Your initial instincts are correct, it’s not arrogance, you could do a far better job than dh, because he isn’t a good parent. If anything, you are being under critical. Your instincts are telling you the truth and you think you can paper over that by managing the emotional abuse your dh is barraging your young child with.

And yes, it is abuse! The reason it feels so horrible to watch is because your gut instinct is screaming at you to protect your child from it!

And you are ignoring it. Put this ‘peacekeeping’ and your dh above your sons well being if you must, but it will come back to bite you.

[WarriorN]

It's not out right abuse but I'd say it falls into the category of causing attachment issues with dh which can cause more issues than it solves.

It's definitely not supportive and loving parenting.

Was the Philipa Perry book mentioned upthread? Dh needs a lot of counselling by the sounds of it.

You could do with some assertiveness training/ counselling. But tbh mn is as helpful

[Secret12345]

Your latest post just sounds like a list of excuses.

[WarriorN]

Correction, it's not abuse in terms of physical but yes, emotional.

[Deathsquito]

@Secret12345

Your latest post just sounds like a list of excuses.

Yes I read it as that. Sounded just like my own mother.

[Bagelsandbrie]

Your poor son. It must have been bad from your dh for your dm to react like that. If he’s being bullied at school he needs love and support, not more bullying at home. Your dh is abusive.

[maddening]

I actually agree that dh approach is also bullying, dc is being bullied at school.and at home.

[powershowerforanhour]

Good luck today OP.

[MerryDecembermas]

DH is a nasty bully. Why is him feeling "disrespected" even relevant? What about your feelings of being disrespected, or DC's feelings of being disrespected? He doesn't seem to give a flying monkey about anyone else being "respected" in fact he is behaving disrespectfully to everyone and he is an ADULT who definitely knows better.. he wouldn't behave that way at work

[WarriorN]

I've come to believe that our generation has taken "never undermine your partner" too seriously. Sometimes there are circumstances and ways in which you can/should undermine your partner.

Absolutely. A friend who's now divorced was putting up with emotional abuse but also not stepping in when Dh did it to her daughters. In the name of showing a united front.

I said it shows you condone his behaviour to them. That being treated like that is ok.

It's taken 6 years for her to finally make this step and be honest with them about his behaviour as it's still going on, as they started to recognise it. Damage is done though. Luckily their relationship with her and her new partner is strong.