All the genders..

[frutyloops]

I had a debate with my teenagers and their friends about all the new genders. And it went on to this:

If a male feels like a woman, she should be in the female showers in fitness centers etc. Also if she still has male genitals. When i say i would really not have male genitals in my shower, im sexist.

I really dont Care what gender people are, but i dont want to shower with male bodies. They were appaled of how sexist i am.

Am i? Really? Maby there is more to this than i am aware of?

I think it's harder when their main reference points to gender identity are either their own age or careful media image that are promoting the be kind ideal without actually looking at actual facilities or the wide range of people - like any group, some are lovely, some not so much, and with safeguarding, we have to think of the worst cases.

My teenagers thankfully haven't gotten into this - I'm not sure if there are particular reasons. DD1 has had lessons discussing gender identity in school, and my repeated refrain is 'that's one way of looking at it, there are lots of other ways people see gender, gender identity and gender dysphoria'. It also might help that they know trans adults and other dysphoric people who are my age rather than their own who have had a wide range of opinions (including that much of our local facilities are just not suitable for mixed sex use when they only have waist high walls between stalls...) which I think combats some of the ideas that all trans people want X or that all people with dysphoria feel Y before they're old enough to know some of the worse things that pp have already mentioned.

If a man is going to assault or rape you he isn't going to go to the trouble of buying a dress and a wig and calling himself Jessica.

You are aware this is the same type of logic that has been used for decades to dismiss victims who are harmed by medical professionals, members of the clergy, and others who are seen to have made too much of an effort to be abusers, right?

As someone who was raped in a hospital by a medical professional, I can assure I don't think that's why such a person got into the field, I have no idea why and I don't really care, but it's been shown time and again that yes, when in a position where one can have power over someone vulnerable that it can reveal the worst in someone. In this case, we're discussing changing rooms where the power is just probably being stronger, but that can be enough.

We need to ensure that facilities are made and managed in such a way to ensure people's safety -- mixed sex facilities are riskier, there is no doubt in the data on that. There are ways to mitigate that risk to make them safer, though it would take a lot more effort than 'live and let live'.

I said it because on this particular website trans people are vilified. I am sorry for your experiences but reading this site you would think every trans person is some sort of up and coming pervert.

Only a few short months ago people were talking about the sight of women breast feeding in public and how nurturing your child shouldn't be allow if it involved women showing a small amount of breast because it made many people, particularly some men, uncomfortable.

And now here we are as women being expected to accept the sight of men's genitals in our 'safe spaces'.

I wonder why it's always women who are told to cover up, don't offend others, suck it up and accept what's thrown at you and shut your mouth?

No man - whatever they wear, however they identify, whatever their inner feelings - should access a female only sex segregated space or service.

If a male feels like a woman, she should be in the female showers in fitness centers etc. Also if she still has male genitals. When i say i would really not have male genitals in my shower, im sexist. *

Ask your teenage exactly  why the opinions and needs of persons in  a female body,  should be subservient to and   over-ruled  by the opinions and demands of  persons in a male body.

Your teenagers and their friends are very privileged and don't understand consent, or abuse, or many other issues.
They cannot consent on behalf of other women. Which frankly is a relief.

Ask them, if they are so confident why don't they campaign for men's spaces to be made mixed sex, and womens spaces can continue as single sex? Win/win imo.

We had a big discussion about this whilst camping this weekend. Ages 9, 9, 12, 14, 16, 16, 19 then lots of parents. Without exception everyone thought the whole thing is ridiculous and has gone way too far. No-one was under the delusion that people can change sex.

OP I would also be concerned about the increased pressure for transmen to be accepted in women's sport. You can google that.

But if I had my DD playing rugby against a TW - including one who had not gone through any transition - I'd be very unhappy her facing someone with twice her weight, muscle strength and oxygen capacity.

Or, if I had a DD (it's always DDs - DSs don't face the same physical problems from Transmen) I'd hate them to lose out on elite sports places after years of effort to someone who may not even have to trans but just self identify.

when you think of the poor East German women who were fed testosterone and won Olympic Golds ... and have had them removed ... and yet we are on the verge of allowing sportswomen the world over to have the same done to them on behalf of minuscule number of self identifying transwomen.

Also all of those athletes suffered severe health consequences in their later years and so presumably that is also what is in store for trans men who are taking the same kind of drugs.

@VladmirsPoutine

I said it because on this particular website trans people are vilified. I am sorry for your experiences but reading this site you would think every trans person is some sort of up and coming pervert.

Safeguarding is predicated on the worst case scenario. Should we do away with DBS checks and all other safeguarding because after all not every person who wants to work in any capacity with children is an up and coming pervert?

@VladmirsPoutine

I said it because on this particular website trans people are vilified. I am sorry for your experiences but reading this site you would think every trans person is some sort of up and coming pervert.

They’re not. It’s self IDing that isn’t popular here; Self IDing into any oppressed, disadvantaged or minority group. Not specific to transsexuals and actually quite supportive of transsexuals.

The whole “gender” thing isn’t massively popular with ideological feminists, either, for obvious reasons, but that is a much broader issue.

@blameitonthecaffeine

In the minds of people between about 13-30 Yes, you are sexist and transphobic and unreasonable. Most people in this age bracket are fully on board with TWAW, multiple genders, not assuming pronouns etc

But to most people over about 30, you're just stating scientific facts and asserting your hard won women's rights.

It will be interesting to see if young people's opinions change with age or whether this new redefining of gender (and even sex!) becomes more and more accepted

Source ?
I would love to know where you got those stats

I said it because on this particular website trans people are vilified. I am sorry for your experiences but reading this site you would think every trans person is some sort of up and coming pervert.

Not at all, but 80% of sexual assaults in sports settings happen in mixed sex changing rooms. Over 95% of sexual offences are committed by males against females. Not having male bodies in single sex spaces reduces that risk considerably.

I said it because on this particular website trans people are vilified. I am sorry for your experiences but reading this site you would think every trans person is some sort of up and coming pervert.

Saying "he isn't going to go to the trouble of..." when it's been shown time and again that yes, abusers do go to the trouble of doing a lot of things. The rhetoric that someone won't erases the victims of the people who do just that.

Yes, this site has a bias, so do all sites, but there are ways to support trans people and other dysphoric people, other than erasing victims of violence or pretending 'live and let live' is a viable safeguarding technique that would make us all happier. It wouldn't - I've been the dysphoric kid who wasn't allowed in the boys' locker room without appropriate supervision because I'm female. It was for everyone's safety and privacy no matter how I felt about myself at the time. I would not have been happier, I would have been at higher risk.

Somehow I got that as a teen in the '90s. It's why I have strong feelings about the need better funding and will towards safer facilities - I've seen a tiny redneck school put in safety measures at very little notice just for one kid that they could have just said no to but did their best to let me participate as I was. I think it's sad how little will other places that talk the talk about being inclusive won't walk the walk about actual safe facilities that would make it so for everyone, including kids like I was and the guys on my team who actually did deserve to shower in peace without my female self involved.

YANBU OP and your teens don't understand the law, which secures single-sex spaces - particularly for women, and in situations where people may be vulnerable: changing rooms, showers, lavatories.

@Catswithflamingos

It’s called transphobia and you should check yourself.

What is? Wanting female spaces so women feel safe and have privacy? That sounds like misogyny. You should check yourself.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

@VladmirsPoutine

This subject is really a mumsnet hobby horse!

I used to be on the side of the fence that sex binary i.e you are either a man or a woman. (Leaving aside intersex people as I feel people often use them as a stick to beat others with). But what does what someone call themselves and their genitals got to do with you? We'd all be much happier if we could all live and let live. If a man is going to assault or rape you he isn't going to go to the trouble of buying a dress and a wig and calling himself Jessica.

I'm sorry but it's not just about the intentions of the male (although I disagree with you there, some males will go to extreme lengths to violate women's boundaries). The feelings of the females who these spaces are intended for is paramount. If even one woman is made to feel threatened or uncomfortable by the presence of a male body or made to feel like she has to avoid certain places or activities because the thought that she may have to share her space with a male, then that is unacceptable. And the fact is, it is many many more than just one woman who will feel this way.

Without going into too much detail it has taken me a long time and a lot of work on my mental health to get to a stage where I can go out socially. If I unexpectedly ran into a male in an enclosed space that was meant to be single sex I would have a panic attack and it would set my mental health back so far. I can tell you this 100% as I am feeling massively panicked at just the thought. I know other women who feel the same as me and I know that there are plenty of women who, even though they haven't had any traumatic experiences, still want the privacy and safety of female only spaces.

So long story short, stop thinking of the males feelings/intentions/motives/just wanting to pee etc and think about the feelings of females. These are female spaces after all, so the feelings of the female users are the only consideration.

@CiaoForNiao

If a man is going to assault or rape you he isn't going to go to the trouble of buying a dress and a wig and calling himself Jessica.

My abuser told me the only reason he didn't volunteer to help at Brownies/Guides was because he wasn't allowed as a man. These days he could claim to be trans. He wouldn't have had the chance to rape me there of course. But he would have done it just to show I could never be safe from him. In fact he'd quite often use "have" to sort things out in the scout hut on Brownies/guides night. (L shaped building with one half belonging to each group) and he'd make damn sure I knew he was there.
So don't bloody tell me men won't go to the huge trouble of buying a dress ffs. Not that you need a dress, or long hair, to claim to be a woman.

I'm so sorry you went through that 💐

I'm so disgusted at the women who minimise and dismiss the very real concerns of other women around this issue.

I also don't understand why, a few years ago, the idea of women and girls having single sex spaces wasn't controversial and everyone seemed to understand the need...but now all of a sudden the very idea is bigoted? Even domestic abuse shelter and prisons where the women are extremely vulnerable.

Thank you @BlaBlaSmthSmth. Sorry for whatever you went through too.

@VladmirsPoutine

I said it because on this particular website trans people are vilified. I am sorry for your experiences but reading this site you would think every trans person is some sort of up and coming pervert.

But in this issue trans people are not singled out at all. In fact the very opposite, all males are unwelcome in female spaces and transwomen are not being picked out as special cases, they are being treated equally along with all other males.

i'd turn off the wifi if teenagers spoke to me like that

@CiaoForNiao

Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

😁 that saying reminds me of the woman who went on big brother and I was reading that in her voice haha.

@CiaoForNiao

Thank you *@BlaBlaSmthSmth*. Sorry for whatever you went through too.

Thank you ❤️ I always feel strengthened somehow when I read other women here standing strong against the hatred of misogynists. Like the bond of sisterhood makes me feel like I'm not just one woman, we're all in this together!

I also don't understand why, a few years ago, the idea of women and girls having single sex spaces wasn't controversial and everyone seemed to understand the need...but now all of a sudden the very idea is bigoted? Even domestic abuse shelter and prisons where the women are extremely vulnerable.

It was so sudden, everyone was caught off guard, and we are all so conditioned now to avoid giving offence that it takes bravery to speak up.