All the genders..

[frutyloops]

I had a debate with my teenagers and their friends about all the new genders. And it went on to this:

If a male feels like a woman, she should be in the female showers in fitness centers etc. Also if she still has male genitals. When i say i would really not have male genitals in my shower, im sexist.

I really dont Care what gender people are, but i dont want to shower with male bodies. They were appaled of how sexist i am.

Am i? Really? Maby there is more to this than i am aware of?

I will ask my (adult) sons and daughter-in-law their views later, but as the "boys" are in their 30s and my amazing Daughter-in-Law is very sensible, but also switched on, I expect them all to agree with us OP.

This subject is really a mumsnet hobby horse!

I used to be on the side of the fence that sex binary i.e you are either a man or a woman. (Leaving aside intersex people as I feel people often use them as a stick to beat others with). But what does what someone call themselves and their genitals got to do with you? We'd all be much happier if we could all live and let live. If a man is going to assault or rape you he isn't going to go to the trouble of buying a dress and a wig and calling himself Jessica.

YADNBU. Have that wine 🍷 . Yes it's crazy. Under this system any male bodied person can wander into women's single sex spaces and do what the hell they like as long as they say they identify as a woman. It would certainly make me feel uncomfortable. It would also be incredibly easy for male rapists to take advantage of this. Making changing rooms and showers mixed sex not only triggers women who have experienced assault and abuse, it also excludes women from certain faiths from participating because they are not allowed to share facilities. Well done OP. Fingers crossed that your kids will listen to reason.

I really could not Care less if you feel like a man or woman. I do, however, Care if there is a dick in a womans dressing or bathing room!!

And Igmum - already done 😂🥂🌺

Poutine, I think you may be vastly underestimating the many convoluted, manipulative and elaborate lengths many sexual predators will go to to stalk, abuse, control and murder women.

OP, if we can all avoid embarrassment by simply not looking, why is there a need for separate facilities at all? Or why can’t a transwomen go in with men and not look at them, if that is the only issue?

@VladmirsPoutine

This subject is really a mumsnet hobby horse!

I used to be on the side of the fence that sex binary i.e you are either a man or a woman. (Leaving aside intersex people as I feel people often use them as a stick to beat others with). But what does what someone call themselves and their genitals got to do with you? We'd all be much happier if we could all live and let live. If a man is going to assault or rape you he isn't going to go to the trouble of buying a dress and a wig and calling himself Jessica.

You might want to acquaint yourself with the numerous examples of videos of TW with penises wanking and filming themselves in women's toilets etc. I'm in no way saying this is what all TW get up to but you are incredibly naive to think this kind of thing doesn't go on. Should we all be OK with that?

At my local swimming pool women, myself included, often strip naked in the showers. Why should we be in a position to feel uncomfortable doing that, which I'm certain would be the case if a male body was in there? Pre covid the changing rooms were used by groups of school girls who were there for school swimming lessons. There aren't enough cubicles to accommodate them all so they often had to change in the communal changing space. Should male bodies be allowed in that space as well?

To the PP who said a pre-op TW wouldn't want to be there, only a small proportion of TW are post OP. Many never intend to undergo surgery. The likes of bearded 'lesbian' Alex Drummond don't even feel the need to take hormones. Should Alex be changing alongside women and girls if Alex wants to so we can all be kind?

Can you ask how you can stop cis males abusing the "freedom" won by trans women?

@Whatwouldscullydo

I would ask what constitutes feeling like a Woman

This is what I really want to know. Surely everyone is non-binary when it comes to 'gender', in the sense that people's feelings about themselves and how they want to express themselves are intrinsically not binary because we are all different.

What is this feeling that I should have which makes me feel like a woman? I know I'm a woman because of my body but I don't know that I feel like a woman. I just feel like me and happen to be a woman.

Surely anything else is body dysmorphia?

It's easy for young middle class people to accept the dogma. They have rarely been in situations where it actually affects them. As they grow up and come face to face with a) discrimination due to female biological functions like pregnancy, b) a man jerking off in front of them and their daughters in a changing room, c) the relentless Puritanism of the TRA ideology, the scales will fall from their eyes and they will be hugely embarrassed/ashamed.

@EishetChayil

It's easy for young middle class people to accept the dogma. They have rarely been in situations where it actually affects them. As they grow up and come face to face with a) discrimination due to female biological functions like pregnancy, b) a man jerking off in front of them and their daughters in a changing room, c) the relentless Puritanism of the TRA ideology, the scales will fall from their eyes and they will be hugely embarrassed/ashamed.

That’s what I think and hope for.

I would these questions

1. why do we have sex segregated facilities (safety, privacy and dignity), and what it is about a man saying he identifies as a women that changes any of those reasons?

2. Allowing men who identify as women into women’s spaces includes them (presumably a good thing in their eyes), but excludes many women - women whose religion or cultural background means they can’t share spaces with males, survivors of sexual violence, and just any woman who doesn’t fancy being naked in front of male strangers. Why is that better than the current arrangement of sex segregation and third spaces

3. Where intact males have been allowed to use women’s spaces (shelters, prisons, swimming pool changing rooms), this has been abused and resulted in harm to women and girls. How many women and girls are acceptable collateral damage for the goal of including some males?

It’s the concept of ‘feeling like a woman in a man’s body’ that bothers me. Sounds frighteningly like the concept of a ‘female’ brain that led to women and girls being denied democratic rights and education. Honestly, wear what you like, have long hair, makeup, a dress but DON’T say you must identify as a woman to do those things as we have fought very hard to be separated from those archaic gender roles and stereotypes.

It’s called transphobia and you should check yourself.

@Catswithflamingos

It’s called transphobia and you should check yourself.

What does checking yourself actually entail?

It sounds like another phrase that’s been purloined from American Ebonics - which is appropriation when the middle class white woke folk use it - and it’s quite ambiguous in British English.

You have to shut the fuck up and completely roll over whilst your thoughts, feelings and rights are trampled on or you are transphobic. I think that is checking yourself but I’m a 43 year old who doesn’t believe a penis has more right to female only spaces than I do.

It's more the orthodoxy that troubles me: 'trans women are women, no debate'. I'm happy for trans people to live their lives in peace. In the main I don't think most of them are waiting in bathroom cubicles for a woman to come in. There are always going to be the miscreants who then create a negative view on the whole. We wouldn't support this towards any other group, or indeed marginalised group, so why do trans people get so much ire.

If you feel like being a cow, and start mooing around them, they'll get embarrassed.

So I wouldn't worry too much

It’s called transphobia and you should check yourself.

To say I don’t want to be in a physically vulnerable position with a naked male body next to me isn’t transphobia.

If a man is going to assault or rape you he isn't going to go to the trouble of buying a dress and a wig and calling himself Jessica.

My abuser told me the only reason he didn't volunteer to help at Brownies/Guides was because he wasn't allowed as a man. These days he could claim to be trans. He wouldn't have had the chance to rape me there of course. But he would have done it just to show I could never be safe from him. In fact he'd quite often use "have" to sort things out in the scout hut on Brownies/guides night. (L shaped building with one half belonging to each group) and he'd make damn sure I knew he was there.
So don't bloody tell me men won't go to the huge trouble of buying a dress ffs. Not that you need a dress, or long hair, to claim to be a woman.

A good reason to keep men out of women's spaces such as toilets is the massive amounts of shaming they do of women and girls on their periods. Banging on doors, filming themselves pointing fingers at women outside who they encountered in the bathroom changing pads. You can even find the videos on Youtube and TikTok.

And let's not even get started about period-fetishists who steal used menstural products and wear them.

We keep men out of women's spaces because they can't or won't see us as human beings. They treat is like objects to be used however they see fit.

If a man is going to assault or rape you he isn't going to go to the trouble of buying a dress and a wig and calling himself Jessica.

Yet they have and they do.

Sex segregation is not all about safety, it's also for privacy, dignity and comfort and one woman saying "No, I don't feel comfortable sharing sex segregated spaces with the opposite sex" is enough.

The argument of if a man wants to rape you he will anyway is the absolute worst justification for this, anyone who uses it deserves utter contempt, lessons in safeguarding and be forced to look those who are the collateral damage when it is thrown out of the window in place of being kind square in the face and tell them that they and the damage they have suffered is irrelevant.

My abuser told me the only reason he didn't volunteer to help at Brownies/Guides was because he wasn't allowed as a man. These days he could claim to be trans. He wouldn't have had the chance to rape me there of course.

We camped a lot at Brownies/Guides, from the age of 7, and did indoor residential things too. Just a thought.

Sorry for your experience.

@RickiTarr

My abuser told me the only reason he didn't volunteer to help at Brownies/Guides was because he wasn't allowed as a man. These days he could claim to be trans. He wouldn't have had the chance to rape me there of course.

We camped a lot at Brownies/Guides, from the age of 7, and did indoor residential things too. Just a thought.

Sorry for your experience.

We camped a lot too. I suppose had he been able to identify his way into leadership he could have abused me on camp. Who knows.