Working in nurseries.

[Ilovegreentomatoes]

I work in a nursery. We are permanently understaffed and can never seem to encourage applicants.I notice this is a common theme among nurseries struggling to recruit staff. So out of interest just wanted to know what would put people of working in a nursery? Yes pay is normally minimum wage could it be that? Or working with children in general? Just interested to hear opinions.

Out of interest, for those of you who have left nurseries, where do you work now?

EssentialHummus
there is only one way to improve conditions for staff and that is for parents to pay more

I agree with second - our childcare costs are the highest/one of the highest in Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if they were among the highest in the world. And for that the overall quality of provision is poor.

Ours childcare costs are the second highest in the world.

Correct. Not only that, but we are only one of two OECD countries where more than 50% (in fact, in our case, well over 50%) of the funding for early years comes directly from parents’ pockets.

And what’s more, the government subsidy nurseries DO get in this country - the free hours scheme - is deliberately underfunded. The government knew it would place additional financial pressures on nurseries and would result in fees for parents of younger children increasing. But they pressed ahead with it anyway.

I think some Nurseries take advantage that a lot of their employees are younger and unqualified. I worked for a nursery chain that used to employ more than half the staff in the rooms as apprentices and then as soon as they qualified they would tell them there was no positions available for them and then just rehire apprentices. At the time apprentices were getting £2.50ph.

It's badly paid because these are profit making businesses in the main and the margins are thin. If they make losses they'll close. There's only one way to save money - staff - because parents can't and won't pay more.

@LemonSherbetFancies I now work for NHS as a nursery nurse in a neonatal unit, i love it! I've been there 5 years, less hours, more pay and job satisfaction.

@Phineyj - parents WON’T pay more, not can’t. Most could pay the extra over and above the 30 hours of funded care, and all could pay for food - they choose not to.

There are other ways that nurseries could save money if they had support from the government:

1. Fairer rents, recognising that children need space but that nurseries cannot afford to pay 10 x the rent that a corner shop (comparable in terms of turnover) would pay.

1. Scrap business rates for nurseries as they have in Scotland.

1. Remove the requirement for nurseries to pay VAT on goods when fees are VAT exempt, so cannot be claimed back.

1. Pay the funding at a realistic hourly rate. This is actually the fault of the local authorities not the government. They set the rates and they keep most of the funding for themselves.

When you have to fight for every penny that comes in, and when every last one of those pennies is paid out, how can you possibly increase staff wages?

I left nursery work for several reasons:

1. I was Level 5 qualified but had to nudge my boss every time minimum wage went up as she'd "forget" that I hadn't had a raise and had gone below NMW.
2. I got hardly any annual leave (because I was only contracted Mondays and Fridays). One year I only got 3 days AL despite working typically 4-5 days a week.
3. There was a weird cliquey vibe where a few staff members were really chummy with management (used to go on holiday together etc) and they'd get choice of leave, first pick on promotions etc.
4. I got pissed off at being regularly left with 16+ young children on my own while the Golden Staff (see 3) disappeared for hours to "photocopy" in manager's office.
5. Despite my qualifications I never got any recognition of my Senior Practitioner Status. I was passed over for promotion time and again while 19-year-olds with barely any qualifications or experience got senior posts.
6. As a professional with a decent work ethic, I used to take time to get to know the children in my care, I'd chat to them and write individual records of each child's day. Then as the early staff left, they'd hand me photocopied day sheets for all their room's children. I felt bad when those children's parents collected them, as it was really obvious that there had been little "care" in their child's care.

I left several years ago to set up my own storytelling business, now I choose which jobs I want and charge £100 an hour!

@InMySpareTime please tell me more about what you do!!! Super interested parent here!

I'm a children's storyteller, I do storytelling workshops in schools, parties, libraries, museums, community events etc.
Basically I have a load of story props (many of which I made myself), and bring a range of children's books and stories to life. I whip children up into a frenzy of enthusiasm then hand them back to their parents. I love every minute of it .
I get to use all my Early Years Degree skills and get paid decently for what I do.
It's also a brilliant excuse for my rampant book-buying habit, and a reason to visit fabric shops more than is strictly necessary.

I'm not your enemy, EYProvider, but I gave some figures upthread. We were paying £15,000 a year (3 days) then £20,000 a year (4 days) for nursery (our daughter wasn't eligible for "free" hours until after leaving the nursery). That is a heck of a chunk from post tax income and we only have the one child. In fact the private school she now attends costs us less than the nursery did, although of course it's not a fair comparison as schools aren't open all year.

No-one is winning from this situation.

@InMySpareTime this sounds absolutely amazing!!! I’m so impressed. This would be awesome for birthday parties c

I do agree that there is less financial support for wealthier parents, @Phineyj.

However, most parents only pay a fraction of their childcare costs while the government (propped up by the nurseries) pays the rest.

If you are on Universal Credit or are a student or your child is in receipt of 30 hour funding, your childcare costs are minimal - ‘free’ in most cases.

The small percentage of parents on Mumsnet who actually pay their childcare costs do not represent the majority.

My daughter's preschool is always fully staffed with low turnover despite what I suspect is low pay (well I know how many staff there are, how much the fees are and how many kids and I'm good at maths...).
They close in school holidays, allow part time working (so staff can see their own kids' nativity plays etc) and finish in time for staff to get their kids from school.
They appear to be encouraged to train and develop in different areas so they all get the chance to lead on something.
The manager always seems like she is really deeply proud of her staff and tells them why regularly. It seems like a happy place to be for both kids and staff, and when they get the odd inevitable complaint my impression is they are well supported with it.

I would definitely agree the sector as a whole is underpaid and undervalued, but as it is the economics of it don't make sense. If you have three children in the baby room paying £60 a day each then you've got £180 to pay a staff member for an 11 hour shift (£110 at £10/hour plus national insurance and possibly pension contribution, so say £130) - then that only leaves £50 a day from those three children for contribution to everything else - other staff such as cook, manager, admin, HR, rent, food and nappies (unless charged as extra), toys, cleaning, heat and light... oh and they were probably VAT registered so of the £180 £36 went straight to the taxman, so the contribution to the other stuff was actually £14, not £50. Of course they can make a bit back as the ratios improve but then free hours kick in so the government wants to pay less...
And on the other side of the equation is the parent (probably the mother) returning to work). £60 a day is £300 a week. At £25k a year with no pension contribution you're working for less than £100 a week with just one child in childcare. Unless the government kicks in more it just doesn't really work, but then they will have to start valuing women more.

My friend is a manager in a local authority children’s centre. They pay better than private I think around 18-21k for nursery staff, plus better holidays, sick pay etc. But she was saying recently that they still really struggle to recruit and it’s getting harder and harder to fill posts. So I’m sure money is a factor I’m not sure it’s just that.

Phineyj Some lovely ideas, but how would you plan to fund them ?

@Hollywhiskey - nursery fees are VAT exempt, so nurseries cannot charge or claim back VAT. Everything is 20% more expensive than in any other sector.

Rents are extortionate. The average cost of leasing a church hall in London is about £40k per annum. For a self-contained building, rents are £40k upwards with business rates on top. I would say on average that nurseries in London pay £80k per annum for rent and business rates.

The turnover in a small to medium nursery would be about 300-400k, so between a third and a quarter goes on rent. The rest goes on staff wages. Remember, it’s not like a shop - you need a lot of staff. A small to medium nursery would need approximately 8-12 staff. The average wage for a NVQ3 in London is about £22k, and that’s on the low side. Look at the agency adverts - I get these every day in my email, most are asking for £25k for young girls with no experience. A manager costs at least £30k, and that’s really low. These are London prices, but so are the rents and business rates.

There’s nothing left once all this is paid out. It’s a thankless thankless industry for both staff and owners. The kids are lovely, but the parents are frankly a nightmare. And the number of children with SEN/behavioural issues is terrifying. I think Mary Whitehouse was right all along about the effects of TV violence on children and society is now paying the price for dismissing her as a nutter. In a few years, 50% of children will need 1-1 care at school for their own safety and the safety of everyone around them. We must be at 10% now, but that’s a different discussion ...

I left a private day nursery a year after graduating with my first class honours degree in early years & childhood studies. I'd been there 4 years already, got consistently lovely feedback from parents and managers. A year after graduating (and making the choice to stick with them full time) I was still on minimum wage, despite me having to awkwardly ask them for a pay rise that never came.

They were advertising that they had a level 6 member of staff and I was taking on so much more than other staff members. My list of key children was ridiculous, I had about 20! Many of those were SEND children who required 1:1 support and children who were on child in need and child protection plans. I was attending SEND transition meetings, regular core group meetings, initial case conferences plus reviews and liaising with so many different professionals I could barely keep up. I was only 20! A 20 year old classifying the type of abuse they think a child is facing, then giving their recommendations for what needs to happen next. It was a lot. All of this while still being an active member of staff within the room, trying to juggle all of my key children's day to day bits like how much they were eating, where their wellies had disappeared to and all of the EYFS paperwork and development tracking. I never stopped, I was doing 20,000 steps a day as a minimum and lost a load of weight.

I put my heart and soul into the job and loved the children but the money was so little compared to the responsibility. It wasn't enough, I wanted to start my life and I wasn't earning enough to live.

To answer @LemonSherbetFancies question:

I left and took an NHS band 4 role within a health visiting team which I absolutely adored. I did that for a while but wanted a bit more than the role allowed so went back to uni to do my midwifery training. Would love to go back into health visiting at some point. Lots of people have a negative perception of health visitors, it's a very tricky role. I want to change that and be a really good support to new mums and dads.

[quote MintyJulip]@LemonSherbetFancies I now work for NHS as a nursery nurse in a neonatal unit, i love it! I've been there 5 years, less hours, more pay and job satisfaction.[/quote]
This sounds great. Are there any benefits to working for the nhs? What is your average day like?

Oh and I also did a few weeks as a private nanny in between but it wasn't really for me. Wrong family for me I reckon, I was a bit bored as well.

@BackforGood

I imagine the same way that many other OECD countries manage to fund affordable early years care where the staff are paid a living wage?

Backforgood my suggestions were about making the work hours more attractive by responding to the fact that TA posts (despite also being low status and poorly paid) are attractive and so is supermarket work (not so poorly paid but not generally in the list of jobs people do for love).

If I were running a business and couldn't get staff I'd definitely be interested in why they would take other min wage jobs but not mine.

Or we could just moan and blame parents (blaming the government would be entirely reasonable).

I'm an ex nursery manager.

Loved the children. Most of the parents were fab too with the exception of a few and the staff team were great.

It was the senior management that were the problem and we were part of a well know chain.

It was shite . The hours are horrendous and I would not go back to working in a nursery if you paid me.

@Phineyj

If I were running a business and couldn't get staff I'd definitely be interested in why they would take other min wage jobs but not mine

Other minimum wage jobs don't have the excessive paperwork and other issues listed extensively by PPs and it would be nothing to do with the way you would be running your business and everything to do with government and Ofsted.
.

@Disgruntledpelicannn
My average day starts at 7.30. We receive handover from the night staff and get allocated our babies for the day. I can have 1-4 babies depending on their needs/staffing.
After safety checks I write myself a list of feed times, drugs, nappy changes, baths etc. Drips etc have to be read hourly.
Sometimes parents are there all day, sometimes they don't visit until later. The drs do their rounds and advise of changes. I can send photos and videos to parents if they have signed up for it. I try to give each baby cuddles if parents aren't there.
Of course there are tough times, tough parents, babies becoming sicker etc
But I really love my job and feel privileged to be able to care for these tiny babies.

I've worked in nurseries for 20 years, level 6 qualified so degree level. I earn minimum wage.
I adore the children and love the basic job and I'm lucky to work with a good team but the upper management are shocking, and the paperwork gets more and more each year, 4 day week 7-7 often asked to come in on my days off. Im the senco for the nursery. We have no cleaners and take it in turns to cook
Our days off are altered weekly to suit, guess what day we all get given on a bank holiday, not given back in lieu.
I was sworn at last month as a childs hair clip went missing, parent then reported it to head office, I was given a verbal warning.
I told my niece who was looking at chdcare to do anything else!