To not understand the vaccine drama

[Lei8133]

I am so confused by all this anti-vaxxer hate and mandating the COVID vaccine for certain professions extra. IMO if you have had the vaccine (which I have, well I’m awaiting my 2nd dose) surely people who haven’t had the jab pose no increased threat to us. The only people they cause harm to are fellow anti-vaxxers and other unvaccinated people for whom the risk is always present.

Surely whether we like it or not it is a personal choice whether you receive the vaccine or not and the freedom of choice is something we should all advocate for whether we agree with the decision or not surely?!? I just don’t get it and the divide it is causes amongst friends, family and the greater society is saddening. AIBU?!?! If so can someone explain to me how unvaccinated relatives and friends are potentially harmful to me despite having received the jab?

@OchonAgusOchonOh At least you’re being honest, maybe it’s the whole holier than thou thing that gets my back up when it comes to this whole topic that sees me defending ‘anti-vaxxers’.

The thing is it’s the government who are actually keeping us ‘locked up’ and restricted... you can’t force people to get the jab, so at some point we have to accept that and move on regardless or we’re basically saying that we'll never live free lives again. Personally once I’ve had my 2nd dose I think I should be free to do whatever and I’m not scared of unvaccinated because I’m protected best as I can be. If new variants come, so will new vaccines/boosters etc all of which I will gladly take. If I get covid/die after 2nd jab... that was fate, surely.

On the bright side unvaccinated services is a new area of business opening up...

@WhenSheWasBad I can't contract Covid from my youngest because they never leave the house.

I did contract it from my eldest last year (as a result of them attending a pre Christmas gathering with more than 6 people). Despite being fat and fortyish, my symptoms were fairly mild. The worst of it was I had no sense of smell all over Christmas. I'm fairly sure I didn't pass it to anyone else as I have so little contact with others.

If I was to contract it again, I'd hope my symptoms would be similarly mild and would not expect to need treatment. Whereas I don't know how I'd react to the vaccine and therefore am choosing not to have it. If I'd not had Covid, or suffered worse symptoms, I might feel differently.

@Morechocolatethanbarbara Brilliant analogy! That really helped to illustrate the point. Thank you.

As well as the utter selfishness of it I also massively question anyone's intelligence if they believe anti Vax rubbish they read online.

For example i can't believe people still believe MMR causes Autism when the Wakefield Paper was discredited years ago because the "research" was appalling. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence should critique and fact check what they read. Take apart and analyse the paper that the findings come from and then decide if you are happy with the outcome but FFS don't believe a reposted tweet off Facebook.

I resent being called an anti vaxxer because I refuse to have a "vaccine" that is not fully tested. No one knows the long term effects of these jabs because everyone who has one is a test subject. I've had every other vaccine that I should have done through out my life.
Most people have over a 99% chance of survival with Covid, weighing that up against an untested medical procedure I know which I choose.
And for anyone who wants to bully me and tell me I'm endangering anyone else, I'm both immunocompromised and I have two autoimmune disorders.
I for one am sick and tired of the bullying on here for anyone who speaks out or questions this "vaccine". Many of you gang up and behave like a pack of dogs against anyone who doesn't do what you want. That in itself is actually quite worrying. Where does it end?

@NotJustACigar Please remember that any death that occurred within 60 days of a positive covid test was considered a death from covid... the initial figures from 2020 cannot be properly assessed IMO. The government even reconsidered their methods on that, because deaths related to other causes were being attributed to covid.

www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN29J2TH

@Lei8133 - At least you’re being honest, maybe it’s the whole holier than thou thing that gets my back up when it comes to this whole topic that sees me defending ‘anti-vaxxers’.

I agree with you about the holier than thous. They are just as selfish as the rest of us, if got no other reason than they like the feeling of superiority that they get from being so "selfless".

I genuinely believe that we do nothing for truly selfless motives. Even the most selfless of actions gives us a reward, even if it's just a feel good factor that encourages us to act that way again.

To me, the biggest concern is if enough people remain unvaccinated, they provide hosts for spread of the vaccine. This gives the virus an opportunity to mutate. We have seen that the delta mutation is more resistant to the vaccine than the alpha strain. If the virus mutates sufficiently to render the vaccines ineffective, then we're all back to square one

OMG this exactly! These are the very thoughts (less eloquently set out) that have been buzzing round my head. @OchonAgusOchonOh has explained it perfectly!

[quote Lei8133]@NotJustACigar Please remember that any death that occurred within 60 days of a positive covid test was considered a death from covid... the initial figures from 2020 cannot be properly assessed IMO. The government even reconsidered their methods on that, because deaths related to other causes were being attributed to covid.

www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN29J2TH[/quote]
That's why the link I posted talks about excess Mortality- that's what allows the statistics to be properly assessed.

Grenlei

If I was to contract it again, I'd hope my symptoms would be similarly mild and would not expect to need treatment. Whereas I don't know how I'd react to the vaccine and therefore am choosing not to have it. If I'd not had Covid, or suffered worse symptoms, I might feel differently

You’ve not answered my question. If you were very sick with Covid, would you still expect treatment from the NHS?

This is why I support those local governments in the US and Canada who are providing incentives for people to get vaccinated. Instead of endlessly explaining the science and the risks to others if healthy people choose not to get vaccinated for no good reason, they offer cash and entries to win larger prizes. Get vaccinated and earn $100 plus get entered for a lottery win is much easier for people to grasp and seems to motivate a lot of people more than protecting the vulnerable does.

@Plumplumbadum well said!

I also get quite annoyed about being labelled an anti vaxxer, I'm not. I had all my vaccinations as a child (still remember getting my polio vaccine on a sugar cube, gotta love the 1970s!), as did my own children. My stance on this vaccine is not the same as my stance on vaccination per se, and I think I should have the right to decline it without derision or penalty.

I’ve had Covid (mildly and am fat and fifty). My son was very unwell with it and my husband was slightly unwell but suffers lingering post viral effects. I’m a pro vaxxer in every other aspect but we haven’t had the vaccine and won’t be getting it. My husband had clotting with Covid and we are all autistic/hyper mobile which comments on various sites lead me to believe make us all more likely to suffer side effects with the vaccine. I think we are unlikely to catch Covid again, at least severely and that the risks of the vaccine outweigh the benefits for us as a family. We always have all other vaccines going btw and never break lockdown rules.

Also there’s this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52446965

@WhenSheWasBad in the unlikely event I was so ill from Covid that I required NHS treatment, then yes I'd expect this to be provided. In the same way as if I became ill as a result of having the vaccine, or from an obesity related condition because I am overweight, treatment would be provided to me.

@Plumplumbadum I do agree that the behaviour and attitude towards ‘anti-vaxxers’ is appalling and that was the original reason I started this thread. Surely at the end of the day we should be respect one another’s choices whether we agree with them or not?!?

If there was a variant which was different enough to require everyone to be vaccinated against it then I’d assume our natural immunity was no longer enough and reevaluate our risk. In that case, we’d probably be better off having a vaccine.

The trouble is that because of delta, the herd immunity threshold is much higher. If we’d not imported delta (thanks to the stunningly bad priorities of the government at the time) we’d probably be pretty close to herd immunity levels by now. Instead it’s going to be quite a lot longer and take quite a lot more people.

I took the vaccine because yes, I don’t want Covid, yes, I want an end to this shit show, yes, I want to see my family abroad again some time before 2025, but also because vaccination is the best way to prevent variants.

The thought of a vaccine-evading mutation arising in my body if I were infected with Covid is pretty awful in terms of the suffering and problems it would cause. But mutations happen.

If a vaccine-evading variant, or one with a higher mortality rate, or one that causes serious illness arose due to me getting Covid and I could have massively reduced my risk of getting it, and then reduced the severity if I did get it - well, to me the thought of that is shattering.

Variants only happen if the virus is replicating. Every extra replication - whether in a new host or caused my more severe disease - is an extra chance for mutation.

I can understand those who are hesitant about the vaccine (though not those who spread misinformation) but I have zero time for those who refuse the vaccine but simultaneously profess to be terrified of new variants and demand everyone but themselves take steps to prevent them entering the UK.

I think I should have the right to decline it without derision or penalty

I think you need to be honest with yourself Grenlei. You aren’t willing to take on the tiny tiny tiny risk of the vaccine. But you still expect the NHS to treat you if you are extremely unlucky and fall very ill with Covid.

I took this screen shot from the BBC website yesterday. It highlights the deaths of people from covid who were doubly vaccinated. Being vaccinated doesn’t stop people from getting covid or dying - it substantially reduces the risk of this happened but it’s much less effective in many vulnerable people.

@Grenlei - My stance on this vaccine is not the same as my stance on vaccination per se, and I think I should have the right to decline it without derision or penalty.

I fully support your right to decline the vaccine. However, as your decision impacts on me and society in general (see the wonderful analogy to seat belt wearing that a PP posted), I also have a right to be disgruntled at your decision. Not that you should care what I think and in real life, I would never tell someone what I thought of them for not taking the vaccine. However, I would be cautious about interacting with them.

Regarding your right to decline without a penalty, I don't agree with you there, simply because your lack of vaccine creates a risk to others. I see it as similar to smoking. You have a right to smoke but you don't have the right to put others at risk by smoking around them in enclosed public places. You have a right to decline the vaccine but if your status puts others at risk, then limitations (e.g. travel etc) should be placed on your actions.

[quote Grenlei]@WhenSheWasBad in the unlikely event I was so ill from Covid that I required NHS treatment, then yes I'd expect this to be provided. In the same way as if I became ill as a result of having the vaccine, or from an obesity related condition because I am overweight, treatment would be provided to me.[/quote]
You are acting like there is an equal risk of you becoming extremely ill post vaccine and from catching Covid.
You are far far far more likely to get very sick from catching Covid than from being vaccinated.

@WhenSheWasBad to me, the risks of the vaccine are greater than Covid. You're in no position to judge that risk assessment.

Why shouldn't I receive NHS treatment IF I needed it? If you're going to suggest I shouldn't because I could have done something to prevent an illness but chose not to, that's a slippery slope...what next, denying treatment to alcoholics with failing livers? To drunk drivers who have injured themselves in a car accident? Smokers who have cancers caused by smoking? Diabetics with complications due to poor diet? All of those people arguably should have done something to prevent their conditions. However a key part of the NHS is that it doesn't judge. We should have autonomy and free will over our bodies, and in exercising that my decision is not to have the vaccine.

On a slightly separate note I don’t understand why people are surprised as they get older they may contract measles or mumps or rubella. And then they blame it on anti vaxxers. This idea of herd immunity for childhood diseases doesn’t really exist anymore. I don’t know any adult who has had an mmr booster except those who were tested during pregnancy and found not to have rubella antibodies. And the vaccines they say last at least 20 years but after that who knows.

Surely at the end of the day we should be respect one another’s choices whether we agree with them or not?!?

I very much agree with this sentiment. However I think it’s worth trying to understand why other people’s frustrations are so much higher around this choice than with other vaccine choices.

With most vaccines, because most vaccines are for diseases that have been around for years and we have established programmes for them, the impact of choosing not to vaccinate is much, much more concentrated on the individual making that choice.

At this point in the pandemic, the choice not to vaccinate in sufficient numbers doesn’t just cause extra breakthrough disease - it keeps restrictions going longer, keeps more families apart, keeps our borders effectively shut for longer and increases the risk of vaccine-evading variants.

A bad variant could easily set us back a year. That’s a year of more lockdowns, a year with more kids missing school time due to closures or class bubbles bursting, another year of businesses folding, another year of soaring national debt, of lack of access to proper health care, another year added on before people like me get to see our families again.

I still maintain people should have the right to choose whether to be vaccinated - but just as those who choose not to be vaccinated are asking for understanding, it’s worth understanding and respecting the frustration others will feel over that choice and listening to their reasons for why they’re feeling frustrated and powerless as much as you would like them to listen to your justification for your choice.