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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder about almonds? And other vegan food/drink

134 replies

okeydokeywokeyblokey · 18/06/2021 17:55

I just read the thread about farmers sending livestock to slaughter, was fascinating.

I've become vegetarian over the last few years and only ate meat if at someone else's house and there were no options (social vegetarian), however since covid have not done that either, so now am fully veggie. I didn't watch seaspiracy, but just hearing about it was enough to put me off eating fish.

I buy eggs from a local lady and occasionally eat cheese and have replaced milk with oat or almond milk. Haven't any health issues and take supplement vit d3.

I don't think the meat industry is going away, but hopefully more vegetarian food will replace more meat dishes over time to reduce demand and maybe somehow legislate to reduce factory farming.

Anyhoo, my question is what are the problems with almond, oat and other milks? What are good alternatives? I avoid palm oil, and anything with corn syrup (not easy in usa)

I read that it takes 5x as much water to get an ounce of beef than an ounce of almonds. I would love to hear people on the subject to get ideas and to learn something. I changed from almond to oat milk because they said it consumes less water, but on that thread someone said oatly was terrible for the environment.

I think reading articles are time consuming and you get a blinkered view whereas you get a wide range of views on here, many eye opening, so while it is possible to Google answers id rather hear your opinions.

So what are good and bad veggie foods?

OP posts:
BettyBurntBuns · 19/06/2021 18:33

[quote kikisparks]@BettyBurntBuns sources to back up that opinion? As all of the research suggests cows milk is worse for the environment. Far worse than oat milk.[/quote]
Oat milk.... firstly, don’t call a white drink not from an female mother, including animals, milk. It’s disrespectful and not correct.

Oat milk has calories and just that.

Explain how a cow, eating gras, doubling nothing to the environment is better than your drinks that is over 90% water... is good for you.

kikisparks · 19/06/2021 18:54

@BettyBurntBuns I’ll call it what I want, as per the Cambridge English Dictionary:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/milk

“ the liquid made from some plants and trees or their nuts, etc.:
coconut milk
plant-based alternatives to dairy such as almond or hazelnut milk”

Also oat milk doesn’t just have “calories”, if it’s home made it has at least carbs, fat, protein, fibre, calcium and iron in varying proportions and shop bought varieties also often have added vitamins and other minerals. Soya milk has a very similar protein content to cows milk but less fat.

So you have no sources to back up your claim that cows milk is better for the environment then?

Data on the impact of cows milk vs plant based options:

eatforum.org/content/uploads/2019/01/EAT-Lancet_Commission_Summary_Report.pdf

“However, even small increases in the con- sumption of red meat or dairy foods would make this goal difficult or impossible to achieve. The analysis shows that staying within the safe operating space for food systems requires a combination of substantial shifts toward mostly plant-based dietary patterns,”

science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987

“We find that the impacts of the lowest-impact animal products exceed average impacts of substitute vegetable proteins across GHG emissions, eutrophication, acidification (excluding nuts), and frequently land use (Fig. 1 and data S2).”

And as to why grazing systems are environmentally problematic:

www.tabledebates.org/node/12335

This report finds that better management of grass-fed livestock, while worthwhile in and of itself, does not offer a significant solution to climate change as only under very specific conditions can they help sequester carbon. This sequestering of carbon is even then small, time-limited, reversible and substantially outweighed by the greenhouse gas emissions these grazing animals generate. The report concludes that although there can be other benefits to grazing livestock - solving climate change isn’t one of them.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/blow-for-grass-fed-beef-as-new-report-suggests-its-part-of-the-climate-problem-not-solution-36209259.html

But at an aggregate level the emissions generated by these grazing systems still outweigh the removals and even assuming improvements in productivity, they simply cannot supply us with all the animal protein we currently eat. They are even less able to provide us with the quantities of meat and milk that our growing and increasingly more affluent population apparently wants to consume. Significant expansion in overall numbers would cause catastrophic land use change and other environmental damage. This is especially the case if one adopts a very ‘pure’ definition of a grazing system, the sort that grazing advocates tend to portray, where livestock are reared year-round on grass that is not fertilised with mineral fertilisers, receiving no additional nutritional supplementation, and at stocking densities that support environmental goals.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-020-02673-x

“Grazing systems emit greenhouse gases, which can, under specific agro-ecological conditions, be partly or entirely offset by soil carbon sequestration. However, any sequestration is time-limited, reversible, and at a global level outweighed by emissions from grazing systems. Thus, grazing systems are globally a net contributor to climate change.”

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 19/06/2021 19:16

Disrespectful to who? The cow?

Ylvamoon · 19/06/2021 20:16

grazing systems ..... Significant expansion in overall numbers would cause catastrophic land use change and other environmental damage

^ This is also true for any plant based crops. Think about the mono cultures that will be planted for maximum yield. They are just as damaging to local eco systems and wildlife. But the majority are not on our doorstep, so your almond milk, rice milk and soy milk isn't seen for what they are. Seeing cute little lambs on Dartmoor or in the Lake District will always appeal more to our consience than a banana or rice plantation in a far away land.

The real issue is overpopulation. The planet cannot support it's growing population with any type of food.
Overfishing, overgrazing and destruction of forrests is all a direct result of an increasing population and their daily need for food.

We can green wash it or call it sustainable or whatever makes an individual feel better. But the issue is not going away.

Pumperthepumper · 19/06/2021 20:35

@Ylvamoon

grazing systems ..... Significant expansion in overall numbers would cause catastrophic land use change and other environmental damage

^ This is also true for any plant based crops. Think about the mono cultures that will be planted for maximum yield. They are just as damaging to local eco systems and wildlife. But the majority are not on our doorstep, so your almond milk, rice milk and soy milk isn't seen for what they are. Seeing cute little lambs on Dartmoor or in the Lake District will always appeal more to our consience than a banana or rice plantation in a far away land.

The real issue is overpopulation. The planet cannot support it's growing population with any type of food.
Overfishing, overgrazing and destruction of forrests is all a direct result of an increasing population and their daily need for food.

We can green wash it or call it sustainable or whatever makes an individual feel better. But the issue is not going away.

Except the difference is we can’t kill off the existing people. We can control our diets and our consumption.
kikisparks · 19/06/2021 20:50

@Ylvamoon but we would need fewer plants if there was no animal agriculture because most plants grown just now are fed to animals and due to feed conversion ratios. So unless you have an actual source to back your position I don’t think you’re right.

Fr0thandBubble · 19/06/2021 21:58

Oat milk.... firstly, don’t call a white drink not from an female mother, including animals, milk. It’s disrespectful and not correct.

Fuck me - disrespectful??? Do you know what they do to these cows @BettyBurntBuns? They artificially inseminate them by sticking their arms inside them (using what they call in the US "rape racks"), over and over again. When the cow gives birth, they literally drag the calf away from it after 48 hours - go and watch videos of how barbaric that is. Both cow and calf screaming for each other. And they milk them so hard that they are producing way, way more milk than they normally would - their udders are horribly distended, mastitis is rife, in fact, there is pus in every pint of their milk that you drink. And then the whole sorry business begins again, over and over again until the cow is so spent that it is killed at about a quarter of its natural life span.

THAT is what is disrespectful.

kikisparks · 19/06/2021 22:13

@Fr0thandBubble absolutely, I did think this about the “disrespectful” comment, surely what’s disrespectful is to take a baby away from his or her mother.

Lulalu · 19/06/2021 22:41

And let’s not mention what might well happen to the bull calves.

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