To wonder about almonds? And other vegan food/drink

[okeydokeywokeyblokey]

I just read the thread about farmers sending livestock to slaughter, was fascinating.

I've become vegetarian over the last few years and only ate meat if at someone else's house and there were no options (social vegetarian), however since covid have not done that either, so now am fully veggie. I didn't watch seaspiracy, but just hearing about it was enough to put me off eating fish.

I buy eggs from a local lady and occasionally eat cheese and have replaced milk with oat or almond milk. Haven't any health issues and take supplement vit d3.

I don't think the meat industry is going away, but hopefully more vegetarian food will replace more meat dishes over time to reduce demand and maybe somehow legislate to reduce factory farming.

Anyhoo, my question is what are the problems with almond, oat and other milks? What are good alternatives? I avoid palm oil, and anything with corn syrup (not easy in usa)

I read that it takes 5x as much water to get an ounce of beef than an ounce of almonds. I would love to hear people on the subject to get ideas and to learn something. I changed from almond to oat milk because they said it consumes less water, but on that thread someone said oatly was terrible for the environment.

I think reading articles are time consuming and you get a blinkered view whereas you get a wide range of views on here, many eye opening, so while it is possible to Google answers id rather hear your opinions.

So what are good and bad veggie foods?

I just don’t drink milk

The milk alternatives taste awful and have terrible air miles not to mention packaging

If I ever needed a small amount of milk did rather buy local high welfare milk in a reusable milk bottle

Even buying in cartons or bottles that then go for ‘recycling’ is mostly just green washing

Depending on where you live OP you could look at Oato - oat milk made locally (ish) to us and distributed using existing milk rounds so minimises environmental impact. It's significantly nicer than any other on the market too. Vegan of four years here.

@HPandTheNeverEndingBedtime tetra paks can be recycled but not at the kerbside. My local dairy delivery company will deliver oat milk in glass bottles.

@HeyGirlHeyBoy fair trade coffee is better ethically but environmentally coffee produces a lot of emissions. Bananas are very low emissions wise (even taking into account their transport) and ethically it’s best to buy fair trade.

Overfishing is a huge issue, globally nearly 90% of the world's marine fish stocks are now fully exploited, overexploited or depleted and even in the U.K. two thirds are overfished www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/22/only-a-third-of-uks-key-fish-populations-are-not-overfished

There are also issues of bycatch. Fish farming is not environmentally friendly. Waste from fish-feed and faeces can pollute the water and seabed around intensive fish farms leading to poor water and sediment quality. Chemicals and pesticides (used in some fish farming to control parasites and disease) can also contaminate the area and impact surrounding marine life.

The oceans are a very finely balanced eco system that are not equipped to be plundered in this way. Because of the ocean food web, if one species goes it can have a devastating impact on multiple species further up the web. We really need to leave it alone.

@Marmaladegin it’s not so much that there is something wrong with soya milk. Environmentally as long as it’s from European soya beans which certainly at a minimum the popular name brands are it’s pretty good. Soya contains phytoestrogens but in the quantities in food it’s been found not to have an estrogenic effect. The big problem with soya is it’s used to feed animals in the U.K. that are then killed and used for food- an area the size of Yorkshire is needed to farm all the soya fed to animals here and the beans used in animal agriculture appear to predominantly come from the rainforest where deforestation has occurred and is occurring to grow soya.

@TentTalk I second trying different brands, two brands of oat milk can taste very different from one another!

It’s either fruit, veg or food to look like animal products

I always think this is an odd thing to say. Which part of an animal is a burger meant to look like? Or a sausage? Or a nugget?

I think I big part of protecting the environment would be to simply reduce our consumption of everything. An then that in itself causes problems with the economy. All our attempts are just contradictions and compromises.

The water argument is bollocks anyway. Yes it takes more water to make cows milk than soy milk for example but they got that figure by not just looking at water irrigated to but also rainfall on the fields and therefore as the cows live in the UK that of course was higher. The rain is going to fall on UK fields whatever you grow in them….

@Cbtb

The water argument is bollocks anyway. Yes it takes more water to make cows milk than soy milk for example but they got that figure by not just looking at water irrigated to but also rainfall on the fields and therefore as the cows live in the UK that of course was higher. The rain is going to fall on UK fields whatever you grow in them….

100% this

@kikisparks - The science shows that reducing Food miles is not the answer

Sorry, but this doesn't cut it for me.
Science article or not.
Common sense prevails in these studies and it often misses out the simple fact of nutritional value, as well as the realistic yield from farmland.

Moving food around the globe via processing plants is big business. Most studies are sponsored by somebody who will benefit from it.

Grated there isn't multinational money in locally grown/ sourced unprocessed foods.

From a money point of view it's not beneficial to the global community.

While highly processed almond or oat milk fortified with vitamins and preservatives, stored in highly processed packaging, is a good global money spinner.

This is why I'm vegan for the animals.
There are pros and cons for different environmental impacts from diet.
But for me it's simple.
Animals don't want to die.
Animals don't want to give birth continually and have their babies taken away.

I'm fortunate enough to be able to cook balanced plant based meals. So I do. I don't pry into other people's diets, but I don't cook or have meat in my house. What anyone else does in their own house is their business.

I've got a lot of respect for people like you who become vegetarian as adults, for moral and environmental reasons.

I would recommend oat milk - probably the most environmentally friendly option and also (in my view) the nicest tasting.

The dairy industry is horrific - both environmentally and in terms of cruelty. In fact, I would say the dairy industry is even crueller than the meat industry (I'd much rather be a beef cow than a dairy cow).

The dairy industry has a huge PR machine though and they are doing their level best to try to bring non-dairy milks into disrepute (by claiming almond milk is bad for the environment, etc.). If you look at any studies claiming things like that, you can bet your bottom dollar that they are funded by the National Dairy Council or similar - so be very cynical of anything you read saying that.

@kikisparks is always reliable for brilliant fact-based posts on any vegan-related questions.

Oh, and I can't tell you how much my health has improved since I ditched dairy. I used to get a lot of sinusitis and chest infections - every time I got a cold it would turn into one or the other and last weeks. I gave up dairy about 5 years ago and ever since then if I get a cold (which is hardly ever) it lasts a few days and is very mild.

That's just anecdotal of course, but what is really interesting is the statistics that show that rates of osteoporosis and breast cancer are much higher in those who eat dairy.

Thank you kikisparks I had no idea about coffee, bar buying FT.
As a former very fussy eater, I would have no problem not eating meat but would miss dairy hugely, namely natural yoghurt, cheese and milk and my diet would be lacking. However I will consider all.

@Ylvamoon the studies are from various sources. If you have some science and data to back your assertion I will look at it but the reason food miles are not the main driver of emissions is that most emissions are generated at the production not the transport stage.

The animal agriculture industry has a lot of money too and advertises heavily.

@kennelmaid thank you very much, hopefully the information helps someone out.

I think oat milk works best in tea of all the plant milks I've tried, soya 2nd choice but that's more variable in coffee and oats fine, it has to be unsweetened for my taste. I find cow milks horrible now I've adjusted to the oat milk. The tetrapaks can be recycled the issue is if you've a recycling point locally or council allows in kerbside but some council areas have none at all. I have to save them up & give to friend to take home to recycle.

Vegan cheese seems to be best melted and the soft cheese spreads prefer for sandwiches.

I'm technically not veggie as don't avoid gelatin and probably other more hidden ingredient.

I've tried loads of oat milks. I just don't like oat milk, they all have a slimy texture, which makes sense as porridge gas it too. I don't mind porridge though! I do like almond milk, but it's environmentally awful so I tend to just go without milk for the most part, though not completely.

Though I actually can't say I enjoy any "alternative" e.g. fake meat substitutes etc.

@Fr0thandBubble

Oh, and I can't tell you how much my health has improved since I ditched dairy. I used to get a lot of sinusitis and chest infections - every time I got a cold it would turn into one or the other and last weeks. I gave up dairy about 5 years ago and ever since then if I get a cold (which is hardly ever) it lasts a few days and is very mild.

That's just anecdotal of course, but what is really interesting is the statistics that show that rates of osteoporosis and breast cancer are much higher in those who eat dairy.

Yep should be drinking raw milk

^ not the supermarket stuff

Yep should be drinking raw milk
Mmmm bacteria...

^yes brillant for your gut.

Why else would you drink milk?

^yes brillant for your gut
No, no.
Cow milk is often contaminated with harmful bacteria, it needs pasteurisation.

Why else would you drink milk?
I don’t.
I have no clue why anyone would drink milk from a big smelly cow tbh.
It smells awful, tastes awful and was intended for a baby cow.
It’s no different to offering a cat human breast milk or drinking dog milk.
It’s a really bizarre and disturbing concept.

@Fr0thandBubble

Oh, and I can't tell you how much my health has improved since I ditched dairy. I used to get a lot of sinusitis and chest infections - every time I got a cold it would turn into one or the other and last weeks. I gave up dairy about 5 years ago and ever since then if I get a cold (which is hardly ever) it lasts a few days and is very mild.

That's just anecdotal of course, but what is really interesting is the statistics that show that rates of osteoporosis and breast cancer are much higher in those who eat dairy.

I don’t have dairy but also don’t have non dairy replacements and this is the most anecdotal bollocks I’ve heard

@Powertothepetal

^yes brillant for your gut No, no. Cow milk is often contaminated with harmful bacteria, it needs pasteurisation.

Why else would you drink milk?
I don’t.
I have no clue why anyone would drink milk from a big smelly cow tbh.
It smells awful, tastes awful and was intended for a baby cow.
It’s no different to offering a cat human breast milk or drinking dog milk.
It’s a really bizarre and disturbing concept.

Lots of animals share products.

Living in a cold country cows milk provided nutrition all year around. Eating grass aid causing next to no harm to the soil.

Raw Milk - high fat, cholesterol for the brain, nutrient dense.... why the hell would you not drink it.

Lots of animals share products
Not to that extent!
When was the last time you saw an adult mammal drinking the milk of another, entirely different mammal?

Raw Milk - high fat, cholesterol for the brain, nutrient dense.... why the hell would you not drink it
Because it wasn’t made for humans...
Human breast milk is for humans, cow milk is for calves, goat milk is for goat kids, sheep milk is for lambs.
It’s just odd.
Most people wouldn’t dream of drinking the milk of a lactating Labrador or a mother horse but think nothing of drinking milk from cows, goats and sheep.
It’s just odd.
What is even odder, is many people are utterly revolted by the idea of drinking breast milk.
The milk that is actually formulated for humans

Great thread OP. As pp said, it’s impossible to live in a way that is 100% environmentally-friendly. There is a tendency for some people to hold vegans to impossible standards by pointing out that there are environmental impacts to all foods, etc etc. It’s classic defence by deflection tactics, basically - plus it’s not as if meat-eaters aren’t still eating all the other foods anyway. The fact is, even if you just cut out one thing - like red meat - it’s obviously better than nothing.

There are two issues really - environmental impact and animal cruelty. All foods will have some environmental impact, but only meat and dairy is synonymous with animal cruelty. Cattle farmers will tell you all about high welfare standards for their animals etc etc. Well, maybe their farm is a step up from factory farming, but it’s still the absolute grimmest of industries, whichever way you look at it. Hopefully it’s an industry on the decline anyway. I do hope so.