Anyone else shocked by the rape statistics?

[Nothingyet]

I think this is shameful: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9698711/Shame-rape-justice-sex-offence-convictions-tumble.html

I used to work in a women heavy office we were a small team, six women, and everyone one of us had been sexually assaulted, four had had been raped, two very violently. It was each woman's first sexual experience.
We came from all different backgrounds.

We do live in a society that always casts aspersions on the woman when she has been raped. Other women fall over themselves to defend the rapist. The courts worry about the rapists future and sullying his past exemplary behaviour (of not having been caught).

Till the law stops using a woman's underwear as a reason why she's 'asking for it' as a defence things will not change. I have yet to hear about a violent home robbery where the defence barrister holds up the door lock and claims the homeowner wanted to be robbed as the lock was clearly asking to be broken into.

So no I am not shocked at the statistic, the odds are stacked against the survivors of rape right form the start. I am in awe of the women who have the courage to take it to the police at all.

I wish I was shocked but unfortunately I'm not.

We are still a long way off from equality despite how far we've already come.

It is disgusting.
The system is created by men for men.
The victim is torn apart if they make it to court. It's shocking but not surprising why many go unreported

It doesn't help that people don't understand what various things mean. They assume a man who gets acquitted is obviously innocent and the woman made it up, not that there wasn't seen to be enough evidence. He could, and probably did, do it, but the system couldn't (or couldn't be bothered) to prove it.

I imagine some people will read the large % of woman dropping their accusations as proof that accusations are made up, rather than understanding that's women being told by the police 'Sorry love, this isn't going to go anywhere' and pressurising them to drop the case.

The fact is, many rape cases will be one person's word against another and may be harder than other crimes to prove definitively, but there's a few things which definitely need to change, especially discussion of how a rape victim 'should' behave after a rape.

Yes, she might talk to her attacker, even seem to be nice to him afterwards - it needs to be understood how women are conditioned to be 'nice', to sort things out, to try to be 'fair' and so on. It's not proof that it couldn't have been rape. A woman might 'hang out' with a group of friends including the rapist afterwards - she might be in shock, she might be processing 'Was that really rape?/'But I like Rob and I don't want to ruin his life...' (see above about being 'nice'), she's not going to come downstairs and yell 'Rob raped me!' at her mates straight afterwards. A woman can be happy in the period after her rape, or be seen to be.

The only behaviour that 'proves' it wasn't rape would be the woman saying to someone or messaging someone that she made it all up. Anything else is speculation.

It's an inevitability. Fortunately we still require a burden of proof to convict people, in order to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they did the crime. The nature of rape means it is very hard to prove, both the act of penetration and the absence of consent must be proven beyond reasonable doubt and this is very difficult. Unlike many crimes there are rarely any witnesses or accomplices, no trail of money or goods to follow, no body to find, no specific motive and an alternative explanation for much of any physical evidence. It often comes down to one word Vs another and that is not enough to convict, nor should it be. It's a sad state of affairs but blaming it on an institutional problem with the police and justice system is neither correct nor helpful.

In the past week there have been threads on here talking about men in an office openly scoring colleagues out of 10, children being expected to wear shorts under skirts “because the male teachers are uncomfortable”, the erosion of single sex spaces for women, and on and on it goes.

Reinforcing the idea that boys will be boys, women (girls) from a very early age need to adapt their behaviour to accommodate men, that our needs and wishes come second. Hell even defining what a women is seems to be controversial.

So no, I don’t find these statistics shocking in the slightest, they’re both the foundation of and the product of a society that seeks to appease men at the expense of all else, including our very existence in the world. This is where it leads to, men knowing that if they chose to rape a woman they have less than 5% chance of ending up in court, much less facing a conviction. We should be rioting in the fucking streets.

I think the jury system has outlived its usefullness. Too many people who are not capable of critical thinking, spend too much time on FB, twitter and TikTok.

On R4 this morning a very brave woman went on to talk about her ordeal. The case was according to the police extremely strong. Probably more so because it was stranger rape.
But the CPS didn’t offer any evidence to the judge, they said they had personally watched the CCTV and it looked like she was holding her hands. When it was all done and dusted she was able to view it, he was clearly dragging her - she was too drunk to resist. The CPS let her down badly.

So I think it’s a combination of things, if rapes are so hard to prove and take to trial then they need to have a lot more time spent on them than others crimes. The CPS have budget cuts of 25% the workforce is apparently down to 5.5 thousand from 8k ten years ago.

People get lost in the system. It’s unacceptable that it takes 9 months to look at CCTV. Totally unacceptable and this is really down to underfunding.

I for one would never report a rape to the police. I’ve had a fairly colourful life, and I know it would be used against me.

All rapists have a mother, I often wonder if they are on MN, some of them must be. I would never report being raped, I have seen what it did to my friend, it tore her life apart. He was a serial rapist who raped 7 women and got just 8 years and was out in just under 4.

They have fathers too. I think we have a huge issue with feckless and absent fathers/ poor male role models.

All rapists have a mother, I often wonder if they are on MN, some of them must be.
What if they are? It isn't always the parents fault if their DC does this.
Society has a big part in it, MH issues, porn sites, greed, seeing how other men treat women in society.

Rapists are adult males, I think blaming their Mummiesis ludicrous.

It seems as though there more often than not no trial by jury, only trial by CPS. On the radio 4 interview today the police in the case cited were good. But often they must not even let it through to the CPS.

It is laughable all that “Cup of Tea” that was supposed to be so simple when talking about rape. On the radio today the CPS had not let the case go to trial because of wrongly interpreted CCTV footage showing the plaintiff ‘holding hands’ with the alleged rapist when in reality she was being pushed along by him - so to the CPS that was proof of consent. Even if she had held hands with him, why would that mean agreeing to sex at a later point?

Rape is not a crime in practice.

I would NEVER Blame a woman for a mans crime! That isn't what I meant, i think i phrased what i was trying to say badly so will shut up. I am sorry it was taken the wrong way.

Not shocked. Angry that nothing seems to change. And men wonder why we organise against patriarchy.

@daisyjgrey

If you're shocked, you haven't been paying attention.

Absolutely. I’m not shocked at all.

@daysofpearlyspencer, with respect to the mothers of accused rapists, I've sometimes/often found their families and partners to be incredibly supportive of them, even following a conviction. I frankly found it unbelievable in the early cases I worked on, now I'm more used to it.

It's totally up to the victim to report or not. On the positive side, I'd say that overall today the support/training/tech today is better than at anytime in the past, that's not an endorsement of the system, far from it!! On the negative side, the defense is increasingly aggressive, it makes my blood boil when I've seen the some of the behaviour (often women too!!).

In the serial cases you describe, I also know some very brave women who reported, with a resulting conviction that I 100% believe stopped assaults that would have otherwise happened (there is a repeat offense interval in many of these cases or weeks/months).

I believe the police are by far and away the biggest problem here why? I am not their greatest fan I am aware of their failings BUT I am also aware of the failings of cps/pf in Scotland and of the shocking way lawyers and even judges behave around rape trials. It is far from JUST a police issue.

In addition the police themselves don’t decide alone whether a charge is to be made that decision is either influenced by or decided by the cps/pf

don't vote Tory. You can't get justice on the cheap

Exactly!

Hell it's damn near impossible now in some parts of the country to even get police to attend a reported crime! Or even get through on the phone!

Low level crime is out of control where I am, if someone is burgled the police don't even attend they simply give out a crime no for the insurance claim!

but the government are not really ashamed, that's just a line.

I agree, I certainly don't think for a second priti Patel gives a shit!

People need to be told bluntly what the word rape means.

Yes! The temptation is to say boys/men need told but there is at least one thread a week on here by an op being raped by a partner/spouse who doesn't fully realise they're being raped. The ambiguity around consent especially in relationships still exists and needs to be clarified publicly. I think a good public info campaign would go a long way to address that.

I don't think there should be a jury

While I understand and sympathise with your argument, if you think judges are any better you’re sadly mistaken.

It’s the widespread misogyny and rape culture needs to be addressed.

Yes it is. How the hell can the police investigate and prosecute if a rape isn’t reported

Nice bit of victim blaming!

Rapes aren’t reported BECAUSE of how victims are treated! Tons of cases where they are reported are halted because the victim has enough of accusatory questioning and being violated again by how rapes are investigated and prosecuted. Eg I would never report being raped because I’ve had periods in my life where I’ve indulged in casual sex where I’ve been “promiscuous” I know EXACTLY how my rape report would be treated - it would be utterly pointless! Sex workers don’t report when they are raped because they have the same issues - there’s an old police “joke” about rape and prostitutes that is STILL doing the rounds even among young newly recruited officers.

@poppop4 I am so so sorry you and your mum went through that you’re absolutely right that’s completely unacceptable!

bythebanksof - rape is one crime where I think previous behaviour of the accused is a key part of the evidence and should be admitted. Though tbh as I said before if they’ve been convicted of rape they should be in prison and therefor incapable of committing further rapes in the first place! Criminals of this type never change.

a serial rapist who raped 7 women and got just 8 years and was out in just under 4.

Exactly why criminals of this type should NEVER be released!!

But these cases are often widely publicised

Which comes back to my earlier point that the media must bear responsibility too and be made to do so.

rather than understanding that's women being told by the police 'Sorry love, this isn't going to go anywhere' and pressurising them to drop the case. so true

The only behaviour that 'proves' it wasn't rape would be the woman saying to someone or messaging someone that she made it all up. Anything else is speculation.

Very well said

Unlike many crimes there are rarely any witnesses or accomplices

Even when there are rapists can still get away with it - again especially where the rapist is famous/rich/powerful

but blaming it on an institutional problem with the police and justice system is neither correct nor helpful. there have been a number of cases some high profile where it’s been blindingly obvious the police and justice system screwed up!

You’re also denying the reality of the posts here where screw ups are being described - lovely!

It is institutional misogyny and rape culture, police and criminal justice system are very much male dominated that’s not a coincidence

All rapists have a mother and a father! And live in our society with the influences there too. Don’t be blaming women for rapey men!

@Graphista
“serial rapist who raped 7 women and got just 8 years and was out in just under 4.”

Exactly why criminals of this type should NEVER be released!!

Do you really mean that serial rapists should get a whole life sentence? Most murderers don’t get that. Nor do terrorists. Prisons are crowded. To make whole life sentences that common, wed need millions more prison cells.

@endofthelinefinally

I think the jury system has outlived its usefullness. Too many people who are not capable of critical thinking, spend too much time on FB, twitter and TikTok.

There was an interesting thread on MN awhile ago about juries in rape trials and how female jurors tend to be less likely to vote to convict an accused rapist than a male juror because women are apparently more judgemental of other women. I’m not saying I believe this, but it made for interesting discussion.

All stories here will be personal, and not reflective of others. My experience in reporting is very dated, late 80s on a college campus. I immediately reported, I was interviewed by a nice/kind policeman, then a very nice policewoman who took a much more detailed written statement, then directed to doctor/hospital who were really no help at all since I did not need stitches/bandages. Of course I didn't know any better at the time, and I followed up with police (by phone a few times) and basically nothing. So while the process was OK-ish, nothing happened.

I was (and still am a bit) angry years later because I learned there had been other incidents before and after me. They had not been linked, no warning provided for students. My brother (police) tells me the story is different today with computerization, it's a training/option, SARC links, DNA testing and so on.

Later I read helpful books by Alice Sebold, Winnie Li and Emily Winslow and all show differents in reporting and follow up experience.

Men rape knowing the odds are heavily stacked in their favour.

@NiceGerbil

40% say YABU.

those who voted that way

It would be good to know if you think

OP is unreasonable to be shocked as it's been in the news before this

Or

Something else- what is it?

Its unsurprising have you ever reported a rape? I only reported someone e exposing themselves to me when I was actually raped I couldn't do it face the disbelief again! What did you mean you were walking down an alleyway? was is DARK? why were you walking ALONE? did you speak to him say ANYTHING to him? Nothing at all are you SURE?

yes I could have walked 5miles out of my way or five minutes down an alleyway it wasn't late and I did not expect to meet a penis on my travels I dont believe I did anything wrong but they sure made me feel I did

@PlanDeRaccordement

52% of inmates are there for non violent offences. I would start with applying community based sentences to these people

16% are there for drug offences. "Big boss" dealers I would have custodial sentences for but not low level offenders/addicts.

There's a wealth of evidence that prison doesn't work in addressing addiction and the associated criminal activity. That properly organised and provided rehab/a healthcare approach - and not shifting addicts onto another addiction like methadone either - is far more effective. Whole other thread really but again comes down to money!

I certainly think options like seizing assets, use of electronic tagging, barring access to internet etc is more appropriate and realistic for certain crimes.

In addition we have a ton of hard to access, currently uninhabited islands around the Uk that we could use for prisons and as they're hard to access/escape from less security would be needed. There's a prison near me and there's regular escapes! Cue helicopters all over the shop and panic until whoever it is has been recaught. I think having prisons in urban areas is plain stupid!

But yes I also think murderers and terrorists need to have whole life tariffs too.

And we need to deport those who aren't British citizens too at the moment the laws around this make it far too complicated to do.

Also if rapists and murderers are serving whole life tariffs they aren't in society committing these crimes again and we're then not having to spend money on catching and prosecuting them so that money can go towards keeping them in prison too.

I think I read somewhere once that it's cheaper to have such a criminal in prison for life than have to deal with more than 2 incidents of their committing the crime. Not sure how accurate that is.

There's a LOT more that can be done.

When the death penalty being abolished was being debated I believe/have been told that the govt of the day promised that such offenders would be imprisoned for life.

That promise has been gradually and seriously unkept.

The average amount of time a murderer spends in a Uk jail is 15 years! That's utterly pathetic!

Here in Scotland one particularly heinous case the culprit had his sentence reduced because he left the body where it would be easily found! I mean like wtf!!!

Judges have applied weak sentences based on such utterly meaningless things like where the defendant is attending university, or who their employer is, or because they do volunteer work!

These things have fuck all to do with the crime!

Theunamedcat

Thank you- I was interested in whether the large number of people who said YABU meant unreasonable to be shocked, or something else.

I'm so sorry for what those men did.

I've never reported anything. Never felt like any point.

If one of my daughters was attacked I really think that unless there was loads of evidence witnesses and all sorts I probably wouldn't.

It wouldn't even cross my mind to report if they were flashed at harassed groped etc.

There's no point. So why put them through it.