Anyone else shocked by the rape statistics?

[Nothingyet]

I think this is shameful: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9698711/Shame-rape-justice-sex-offence-convictions-tumble.html

You see the police as the problem.

What do you think needs to change?

That is more interesting than talking about reducing the burden of proof in court, surely?

You've already agreed that women tend not to report he said she said as we're not stupid. So given that, what's the issue with the police?

You see the police as the problem.

What do you think needs to change?

Well without meaning to sound glib, better investigations, leading to more prosecutable cases, and hopefully a resultant rise in convictions.

You've already agreed that women tend not to report he said she said as we're not stupid. So given that, what's the issue with the police?

In short, 97% of reports never resulting in a criminal charge.

I'm sure there must be an argument to be had about the CPS/Crown Office and their decision or otherwise to prosecute cases, but they do not lay criminal charges. That 97% discrepancy occurs at the point whereby the matter is entirely in the hands of police forces. So, it seems that if focus needs to be anywhere, it should fall upon the police.

What, specifically, is going wrong, and how to go about fixing it is a totally different matter. I don't pretend to have any answers to that.

Unfortunately we live in a patriarchal society

Shameful yes, shocked no. Influence of porn, reduced levels of policing (which started in London when Mr Johnson was Mayor), CPS failures.

@PlanDeRaccordement

So that is s result of the justice system really.

Ah, I don’t see police as part of the justice system. I see them as part of the law enforcement system. They investigate and charge criminals, and then hand the case over to the justice system for prosecution.

The issue is the police too often DON'T investigate properly. The CPS decides who to charge, not the Police.

Police absolutely are part of the justice system, they are the first step of the process. No justice without good policing.

Tories have cut every part of the system - police, courts, prisons, probation. If you want criminals brought to justice, don't vote Tory. You can't get justice on the cheap.

The rape stats are a disgrace but the government are not really ashamed, that's just a line.

I'm not shocked at all. The man who repeatedly raped me as a child walks free. The police were never involved although my family knew. The way victims are treated needs to change. The thought process in the courts needs to change. Societies attitude needs to change. People need to be told bluntly what the word rape means. Statements about the victim previously having sex need to be excluded from court. The jury should only hear relevant facts. It is irrelevant how many sexual partners a victim has had, or what she/he is wearing.
There are also an awful lot of rape apologists and we live in a society of double standards.
Lots of people are quick to victim blame.
It starts with men harrasing children. Its acceptable to controversial threats at a female child, happens all the time.

@PracticingPerson
The issue is the police too often DON'T investigate properly. The CPS decides who to charge, not the Police.

Agree the police bungle the cases. Of course CPS isn’t going to prosecute when handed a pile of steaming shit by the police. The cases get rejected by CPS because the police mess it up 97% of the time.

Police absolutely are part of the justice system, they are the first step of the process. No justice without good policing.

You can have that opinion. I see policing as law enforcement system, not justice system. There are clear lines between police and courts. It’s not really worth arguing over. I don’t care if you call them part of the justice system or not.

I'm amazed a P Patel's comments - mostly the Gov shoves blame for stuff onto the police eg stabbings in London and stop and search which gets the police branded as racist - just maybe the Gov should do something about the drug gangs and drug situation in cities - no drugs - no stabbings. But hey, it's the 'useless' police - not the magnificent MPs who are happy to slag them off at every opportunity.

So this is a turn up for the books. Thankfully she is apologising and accepting some responisibility.
Part of the problem is no one is being convicted so there is no deterrent.
It's our adverserial system. Makes it too harrowing to make an accusation of rape. Something has to change.

The jury should only hear relevant facts.

I don't think there should be a jury - they see a smart young man who they could send to jail for 15 years - and a distressed young woman who will go home after the case whatever the result. Hence smart young man gets off. Increasing the sentencing has probably made convicting harder for a jury.

** NiceGerbil

Plan so you seem to be suggesting that it's women's fault for not reporting**

^Yes it is. How the hell can the police investigate and prosecute if a rape isn’t reported

My mum was raped, she called me and I called the police from her house. She didn’t shower or change her clothes until they got there. They identified the man from his DNA found unfortunately inside her 🤮 arrested him, he denied it said he wasn’t even in that area that day. And because the police didn’t go to the place she was to collect the cctv for 9 mo the it had been taped over the bar only keep 6 months worth so they couldn’t prove he was in that area at all and the CPS threw it out. My mum had 2 witnesses who heard her screaming moans came to her aid to fight the man off but yet he wasn’t ever convicted! It is entirely fucked up!!
It’s ruined her life, she was very sociable and now can’t even go out alone she’s so scared.
It’s beyond shocking. In the moment before we rang the police she kept saying hysterically whats the point they’re fucking useless I just thought she was being a but hysterical and irrational turned out she was right

Given the way that victims of rape are treated in the courtroom, it's a miracle any cases get to court at all. I have huge respect for all women that get to that stage, and huge sympathy for those that feel they can't put themselves through that.

It wouldn't be acceptable to tell the victim of a burglary that they shouldn't have had their nice car on the drive or that their TV was too obvious. It wouldn't be okay to say 'well, you've been robbed before' and imply that they were clearly asking for it.

The only way to get more convictions is for the lawyers, the judges and the juries to focus less on what the woman did and more on the rapist. A woman's sexual history is classed as evidence. A rapists previous convictions are inadmissible.

I have direct experience if a case where marital rape was reported, amongst other domestic abuse. The victim reported the existence of evidence. It took the police months to ask for the phones of both the victim and the perpetrator. The phone of the perpetrator was long gone and so was the rest of the evidence.

So a crime was reported, the man questioned and months later the police go looking for hard evidence. It's a complete joke. Needless to say the CPS dismissed it on the basis of it being a "he said, she said" case.

Yes it is. How the hell can the police investigate and prosecute if a rape isn’t reported

Maybe look at the systemic reasons for not reporting rape. From initial reporting to police, through investigation and into court the treatment of victims is appalling - I’d not set myself up for that after the trauma of being raped.

Not shocked at all. Rape is barely a crime, women’s bodies mean nothing.

@Poppop4

My mum was raped, she called me and I called the police from her house. She didn’t shower or change her clothes until they got there. They identified the man from his DNA found unfortunately inside her 🤮 arrested him, he denied it said he wasn’t even in that area that day. And because the police didn’t go to the place she was to collect the cctv for 9 mo the it had been taped over the bar only keep 6 months worth so they couldn’t prove he was in that area at all and the CPS threw it out. My mum had 2 witnesses who heard her screaming moans came to her aid to fight the man off but yet he wasn’t ever convicted! It is entirely fucked up!! It’s ruined her life, she was very sociable and now can’t even go out alone she’s so scared. It’s beyond shocking. In the moment before we rang the police she kept saying hysterically whats the point they’re fucking useless I just thought she was being a but hysterical and irrational turned out she was right

It's awful isn't it. Even more awful that I not surprised. I feel so bad for you and your mum.

Not shocked FURIOUS. What are the statistics for male victims fo rape?

I'm not surprised - the system is so awful that I have seen some women with experience of it saying they'd advise not reporting rape as going through an investigation is so violating and traumatic, and so unlikely to result in a prosecution that it's hardly worth it.

As most rapes are not 'a guy jumps out at a woman and puts a knife to her throat', getting a man off a rape charge basically has to consist of proving his accuser is a lying, sex-mad trollope and they'll find ways of doing that.

Too much of the system is built on the societal narrative that women are manipulative liars so you have to start from the assumption that the woman is making it all up to get the man in trouble, despite the fact there is 0 reason for women to do that.

@Jellycatspyjamas

Yes it is. How the hell can the police investigate and prosecute if a rape isn’t reported

Maybe look at the systemic reasons for not reporting rape. From initial reporting to police, through investigation and into court the treatment of victims is appalling - I’d not set myself up for that after the trauma of being raped.

I agree with you. In the case I spoke about I am furious that the man got away with it and relieved that someone I love didn't have to go through the trauma of a trial. Many victims report that the trial was a worse experience than the actual rape. There is so much wrong with that.

I worked in rape crisis, so I’m not shocked at all (though it’s of course sad and shit). We’ve been banging on about this for years.

Sickened but sadly not surprised.

I worked in associated legal area for 30 years (and a few people here on MN know me in RL). Firstly, it's great to see a topic like this discussed on a more broadly read area of the site. It's often in relationships or feminism, which I expect get way less traffic.

There is a lot I could reply to above, but I'd select a few based on totally subjective personal experience (with all the associated flaws/limitations of such)

• I've never ever encountered a case where I personally did not believe the victim. I'd be considered a skeptic in real life! I know false accusations must happen, but I've just never encountered one

• I've encountered many many situations where I really believe the accused is guilty. Of course, I can't know for certain.

• Docket analysis techniques is used (with lots of variants) for linking cases, especially strange rape. I've frequently found that the accused for one crime, will have a whole series of related red flags. Strange rape is seldom a one time crime. Most of this is never seen in court (for reasons I do technically understand)

- I've never ever encountered a case where I personally did not believe the victim. I'd be considered a skeptic in real life! I know false accusations must happen, but I've just never encountered one

And this is part of the problem. False accusations are rare. False accusations getting to court are even rarer. But these cases are often widely publicised, unlike the vast majority of cases which are genuine. Therefore there is a perception that false accusations are a much bigger problem than that actually are.

When we talk about rape culture this is what we mean. We live in a society where you can rape a woman and know that you are very unlikely to face any consequences.

Not shocked. It's always been this way.
Whole system is beyond warped.