Anyone else shocked by the rape statistics?

[Nothingyet]

I think this is shameful: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9698711/Shame-rape-justice-sex-offence-convictions-tumble.html

@Drivingmeupthewall

Not even slightly shocked. It’s appalling what a rape victim has to endure before the police/CPS then throw it out anyway.

1000% agree.

I speaking to Police Officer other day, and I made kinda dig about justice system and he agrees that it is soul destroying all work and effort that goes in to get the fuckers to point they in Court of law only to end up to get basically telling off making mockery of victim and all that suppose to protect the victim

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@endofthelinefinally
Men get away very lightly when they murder women too.
Women and girls are expendable.

I don’t agree entirely with this because men kill other men/boys at double to triple the rate they kill women/girls. It’s just that all human life is cheap.[/quote]
See later post about the horrific murder of a 15 year old girl. The man got 3 years.
The recent torture and murder of women where the men get off with very short sentences because they claimed it was rough sex gone wrong.
Raping and murdering women and girls doesnt seem to carry a life sentence or anything approaching that
It would be interesting to compare sentencing.

Even when rape cases make it to court, the victim is typically questioned on her actions from a cause and effect angle.

Clothing
Alcohol intake
Choosing to walk home alone
Previously sexual encounters

Why?!

@NiceGerbil

Plan so you seem to be suggesting that it's women's fault for not reporting

Rather than their not reporting being a reaction to the stats etc

Is that correct?

Fuck no, I said quite clearly the police bungling the cases is the problem.

Why report, if the police are just going to dismiss you? I don’t blame the women for not reporting. I’ve lived both reportIng and it going no where but a shredder or delete button in the police system. And also not reporting. The worst hell I went through was when I reported being raped to the police.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@endofthelinefinally
Men get away very lightly when they murder women too.
Women and girls are expendable.

I don’t agree entirely with this because men kill other men/boys at double to triple the rate they kill women/girls. It’s just that all human life is cheap.[/quote]
That's not true. Men may kill more men, but they are far more likely to lead to a conviction. There's no such thing as a 'banter that got out of hand' between good friends (unlike the rough sex defence for men who choke their partners), nor can they get reduced sentences by telling the court that they were carried away in the heat of the moment when they heard that their friend told them they didn't want to be friends any more.

This also points to the fact that most male on male killings are very different sorts - all are still tragic, but there is a far lower proportion in intimate relationships and in dynamics where the victim has so much less power, in both life and death.

Doesn't surprise me. If I got raped I'd be unlikely to report it. Bank robbers have always got longer sentences than racists. Seriously fucked up.

No longer shocked

Angry, dismayed, disappointed, heartbroken, fearful (especially as the mother of a 20 year old woman) and fed up!

But not shocked.

Vote Tory - this is what you get (among other things)

There were at least 3 whole forces who were found to not be recording - let alone investigating - rapes reported to them and were put under supervisory measures as a result!

That IS shameful behaviour!

I speak as the sister of a serving officer when I say attitudes within the police and beyond still need a MASSIVE sea change.

But also among wider society. There was a recent thread where the op was posting ostensibly about a girl being a "bad influence" on her dd, it was clear to anyone with any sense that this child was being groomed/abused and desperately needed help yet the first few posts were victim blaming bingo!

And frankly GIVEN the appallingly low recording, investigation, prosecution and conviction stats - is it any bloody wonder women and girls don't report rapes and sexual assaults?! Clearly 9.9 times out of 10 it's utterly pointless - actually worse as the victim has to go through the distress, humiliation and trauma involved in evidence gathering inc intimate medical exams, photos etc

I think we need to flip it on its head and look at why so many men rape when they know - or because they know - they are likely to get away with it.

Definitely!

We need to address the root causes - a sexist society, rape myths, hypersexualisation of certain demographics, victim blaming - rape culture essentially

when the stats show that two thirds of all charges result in a conviction. not rape charges so you must be meaning all crime? In which case if we have a 2/3 rate of conviction in regard to other crimes then the conviction rates for rape and sexual assault are even more shameful

Sentencing is another area needs looking at, community sentences for such heinous crimes is abhorrent!

I don’t blame the women for not reporting good to know I'm so sorry for all you've been through.

I'm a csa survivor I looked into reporting at one point but my word v his so no point and he wouldn't have admitted anything

When dds ex she met at work stalked her police and employers were fucking useless and treated her as if she were "just being a drama Queen" in desperation I contacted his parents (tbh thinking parents that raised such a lad would be little to no use) but actually they were horrified, assured me he'd be dealt with and he was and it stopped but i think in most cases this would have no effect.

I've friends and family who've been victims of seriously violent assaults and those who reported wished they hadn't! One has lost HER career as a result, the rapist is still in the same career which is deeply concerning (teacher)

It's a mess!

Men may kill more men, but they are far more likely to lead to a conviction.

Are they? So youre saying there are more men acquitted of manslaughter/murder when the victim is female than male?

Any source to back this up?

Here is what ONS says

“Almost three-quarters of all victims were male (73%) and just over a quarter were female (27%).”

“The homicide rate was 11.7 per million population, with the rate for males (17 per million population) almost three times that for females (6 per million population); this is a higher difference than previous years because of a 20% increase in the number of male victims, from 422 to 506, and a 16% decrease in the number of female victims, from 225 to 188.”

“In the year ending March 2020, around a half (49%, 341 offences) of all homicide cases resulted from a quarrel, a revenge attack or a loss of temper.”

“The figures for suspects were similar to that for victims. Almost a third (31%) of homicide suspects were recorded by the police to have been under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs at the time of the homicide:

16% had been drinking alcohol
4% had been taking an illicit drug
10% were under the influence of both (Appendix Table 17)”

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020

not rape charges so you must be meaning all crime?

No. Rape Charges.

3% of all reports result in a charge, of which two thirds result in a prosecution. Roughly 1.6% of all reported rapes.

The big graphic in this article -

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57511425

Great post @graphista.

Sorry, conviction, not 'prosecution'.

'The vast majority of victims do not see the crime against them charged and reach a court - one in two victims withdraw from rape investigations.'

From the plan
'Putting greater emphasis on understanding a suspect's behaviour rather than focussing on a victim's credibility'

I do always bang on about the met. They're my force for over 40 years and they have a list of terrible behaviour as long as your arm.

Including on sex offences.

Cressida dick is absolutely horrible. A disaster. Yesterday we had her (naturally) rejecting the finding she was involved in cover up/ corruption over s murder case.

Here's what she said about sex offences in 2018

'in response to the question of whether she was rethinking the policy, Ms Dick said: “Rethink? I’ve rethought. I arrived saying very clearly to my people that we should have an open mind, of course, when a person walks in. We should treat them with dignity and respect and we should listen to them. We should record what they say. From that moment on we are investigators.”

She added: “Our job in respect of investigations is to be fair, to be impartial, and where appropriate to bring things to justice — and of course to support victims, but it isn’t all about victims.”

The Met has also faced criticism following the collapse of a number of rape trials because of a failure to disclose evidence.

Ms Dick noted that the MeToo movement had shed light on sexual abuse but said: “Speaking as a cop, opposed to a citizen, I’m interested in crime. If it’s a long time ago, or it’s very trivial, or I’m not likely to get a criminal justice outcome, I’m not going to spend a lot of resources on it.

“And what might be a misunderstanding between two people, clumsy behaviour between somebody who fancies somebody else, is not a matter for the police.”'

"Clumsy behaviour"

@XDownwiththissortofthingX I think you and the authorities are doing some fancy footwork with the stats there! It may be true strictly speaking BUT still doesn't mean this is a good stat when it's only 3% of reported rapes result in a charge and we know that MANY more aren't even reported (for obvious reasons) as you say yourself 2/3 is still only 1.6% of all reported rapes - that's a pathetic number!

Yes I agree with the idea that they need to stop vilifying victims (inc on the WITNESS stand) and need instead to focus much more specifically on the perpetrator.

This is 2021 we really shouldn't STILL be having to fight on this shit!

But I'd still far far rather have rapes and sexual assaults prevented in the first place!

We need a massive change in education of children on consent and bodily autonomy etc, also education of employers (and frankly I think making employers directly liable if they fail to protect employees - including things as "subtle" as a "hostile work environment" - but certainly where they don't act to ensure employees are safe) and of our wider society, we can't affect the rest of the world but we can certainly forge ahead with making the Uk a hostile environment for sexual predators!

We're too damn soft on them
in this country!

The first bit about it not being all about the victim.

The idea they impartially investigate- yay! But the met had an appalling history of dismissing reports, failing to catch serial rapists because they didn't believe multiple reports, the rape unit was closed down because evidence was being falsified and reports not filed etc etc

The believe victims idea was a reaction to the fact they were often not believed and often questioned at length about all sorts of things to 'prove' their veracity'. I know s lot of people didn't like it- the head of the met decided to go public with a statement that the met were going back to a position where they didn't take the report at face value unless they had good reason not to.

The second part that seems to me to be alluding to historic offences (there were a lot of reports due to things in the news including historic child sex offences) and date rape.

I thought it was an appalling message for the met head to communicate to the press.

but it isn’t all about victims

Wtf! What the hell kind of comment is that from a high rankin officer?!

"Clumsy behaviour"!

Jesus she should be ashamed of those comments as both a cop AND a woman!

@Graphista

Why on earth would I have any interest in doing 'fancy footwork' with anything? I'm quoting directly the figures from the Government's own statistical analysis, as reported in the BBC article. Presumably you believe the BBC must also have some sort of ulterior motive to collude in reporting figures that you yourself are sceptical of, because reasons?

3% of all reports resulting in a charge is a shockingly low figure, I'm not disputing this. I posted originally in response to @PlanDeRaccordement to state that I agree. You can't really criticise judges and the court system for 'lack of convictions' when it's blindingly obvious the real issue is 'lack of prosecutions'. Convicting two thirds may or may not be too low, I think you can argue that either way, but what is clear as day is that a far, far greater failing is that only 3% of all reported rapes actually result in a criminal charge.

As an aside - speaking as an outsider looking in, I'm forever glad I live at the opposite end of the UK and have never had any dealings with the Met Police. Everything I've ever read about them suggests they are every bit as bent and criminal as the people they are supposed to be nicking.

It's a massive issue and multi faceted.

The criminal justice system was set up ages ago by men for men and the things men cared about. It was about property crime, essentially. It's never been good for interpersonal violence.

The attitudes in society that are still deeply held and pervasive. The societal line is that rape is very bad. However when one is actually reported- and I've seen this in action. It's all. She's making it up, why was she there, she probably regrets it, what was she wearing blah blah. As a concept it's very bad. In practice most of the time it's well I mean but... Focus on the victim and their behaviour and why in this case it's probably not true/ not entirely true.

The weird line between

These sex crimes are just really common and not a big deal so don't make a fuss, ignore it, laugh it off

And

OMG that's a really serious accusation are you sure. (You could ruin a man's life)

Is a real problem.

@Graphista

but it isn’t all about victims

Wtf! What the hell kind of comment is that from a high rankin officer?!

"Clumsy behaviour"!

Jesus she should be ashamed of those comments as both a cop AND a woman!

Like I say she's a disaster.

The lies after Jean Charles menezes.
The stuff I just posted.
The murder of Ian Tomlinson
The other day being found as implicated in the corruption that meant a murder wasn't investigated properly

There's more.

She's the head of my police force.

It's never been good for interpersonal violence

Yes, fundamentally this.

When the matter is more often that not a question of one person's version of events versus another's, It's understandable why it's often difficult for the police to build a credible case to submit to prosecutors in the first place. I think that if you were being gracious to the police, an element of it would be that they will obviously devote time and effort into investigations that they believe stand some chance of being prosecuted, and are less likely to do so with those that present virtually no corroborating evidence. However, that does not explain away the massive discrepancy between reported rapes and sexual assaults and actual criminal charges.

It's always going to be a comparatively difficult crime to investigate and produce a robust enough case to prosecute, but that does not mean the police do not still fall woefully short in that regard. Understanding exactly why, and how to go about correcting the shortcomings, overcome the difficulties, and enable a far larger number of prosecutions that have a realistic chance of success is really the key here. I've no doubt that a large part of it is attitude, for all the aforementioned reasons.

I never take research or statistics on face value, it's never that simple. They are created/compiled by people and people are fallible and have agendas.

And yes I include the bbc in that of course why wouldn't I? They have a proven track record of dodgy decision making on such matters

You can't really criticise judges and the court system for 'lack of convictions' when it's blindingly obvious the real issue is 'lack of prosecutions'.

The problems are at ALL levels

It starts with the levels of sexism
in society and the way girls and women are portrayed and the ways both sexes are socialised, it continues into what happens after an assault occurs, from reporting (whether the victim feels able to, are they supported, how the person/authority [made up of fallible people with agendas] responds to the report, do they act on it?) to investigation (are the officers investigating doing so to the best of their ability, do they bring their own baggage into it, do they have the resources they need), to cps consideration (does the person reviewing the case do so honestly and with integrity, are they competent are they lazy and skipping steps, do they have the resources they need) to prosecution (what are the lawyers involved bringing to the table inc the judge, resources again, are the lawyers behaving appropriately in how they deal with the victim - again not just defence lawyers but also judges and even prosecuting lawyers have behaved appallingly at times), to the judgment (have the jury been correctly advised, this is a random selection of people who may well be bringing their prejudices to bear, who can't be arsed listening properly cos jury service it's boring innit...) to the sentencing (judges are not perfect, sentencing guidelines are pretty crap too)

There'd probably be more prosecutions if there were more convictions as they'd not be seen as "impossible to convict" and therefore "not worth prosecuting" its every step of the whole system

I'm guessing you're in Scotland as am I? If you think Scots police are much better you're deluded!

@NiceGerbil good posts!

@NiceGerbil are you a serving officer?