Hitting back

[Hullabaloo9]

I am a bit conflicted about how I feel on this one. My ds(4) was involved in a minor alteration at school today. He and a good friend were arguing about something silly. Friend squeezed sons arm and dug in his nails, breaking the skin. Son said he would tell the teacher so friend restrained him to prevent this. Son hit friend. They were both told off by the teacher and are still best of friends. Its just one of those things that happens with kids this age. Six of one and half a dozen of the other. I'm happy with how it was dealt with.

However, it got me thinking, I'm not sure if I really should further reprimand my son for hitting in this instance. Obviously its not ideal and I have always drummed into him that if someone hurts him he should tell the teacher... but if that option is not possible?

I am tempted to tell him (probably when he's a bit older to be honest) that he must first shout out loudly "stop it, you are hurting me" at least 3 times and if no help is available that he can defend himself. In these circumstances he can hit as hard as he can but only once, and then go and find a teacher as soon as possible.

To avoid drip feeding, he is my third child. My older two I definitely followed the school line of no hitting under any circumstances, no retaliation, always just tell a teacher. My middle son suffered some prolonged bullying in upper primary and although being considerably bigger than his bullies he would never ever hit back. Maybe I wish he would have.

Please share honestly how you advise your kids on this issue. I honestly don't know what's the right approach.

I’ve drummed it into my 6yo to say loudly “stop! That hurts!” To my knowledge he hasn’t had to do it yet, but he has been doing martial arts so the age of 3 and often shows off his moves/belts/medals in class, so maybe they are afraid to try anything with him. I think your idea of saying 3 times then giving a swift thump is perfectly acceptable.

I agree OP. That saying, I would hate my child to start something but I’d argue they’re case you defend themselves and if that means hitting back then absolutely.

I’d argue their case to defend themselves I mean

Thank you. I was braced to be told that hitting back is unacceptable. I do think that maybe standing your ground like this, even just once, might deter others from singling you out

Zero tolerance on violence means zero tolerance on violence.

You teach him the skills to de-esculate. In this situation, he could have just walked away and told a teacher at a quiet time later. He didn't need to inflame the situation immediately. The skills of calming down and de-esculating.

I sit on the discipline panel at a secondary school dealing with fixed term exclusions. I must see 3-5 children involved in physical alterations per week, every week, all excluded. No distinction is made between "he started it". Bith/all pupils using physical violence will face the most serious consequences.

You teach him how to de-esculate.

I'm a teacher. I'll tell my own children to hit back. You cannot protect children who are victimised because they're an easy target. I guess you know this already from your older dc. I've seen it many times. Being a punching bag is a terrible habit to get into. Most kids will not bully someone who makes it difficult.

@FATEdestiny I appreciate your comment, particularly as you clearly have first hand experience of this issue.

I can see that on the basis of any individual incident that de escalation is the best path to prevent harm. Obviously as boys grow into men it is best that they can avoid and defuse dangerous situations.

At school though, particularly primary, do you not think that asserting yourself (Obviously only in defense and when walking away or telling a teacher is not possible) can act as a deterent?

I'm genuinely interested, not being goady

I tell my DS that if someone pushes him, to push them back, but never push first. Same will go for hitting.

This is what my parents taught me and fortunately I never had to hit back, but it gave me confidence to know that I had permission to stand up for myself and there is a simple way to react to violent behaviour.

Being assertive absolutely does not mean being violent. By teaching children to deesculate you are directly teaching them to be assertive.

Without any intent to be goady here, I am aghast at the suggestion that to be assertive means to sometimes be violent. You clearly have very different ideas to me if you see de-esculating as meek or non-assertive.

Violence isn't a helpful deterrent, no.
Violence isn't the "right answer" to anything!

I was bullied throughout school as I'd been brought up not to hit back. One day I hit back and it stopped. I've always told my son he shouldn't start a fight but he can defend himself.

How the f does a 4yo 'de-escalate'??

Grown ups should be sorting this out for them at this age.

@FATEdestiny

How do you teach teenagers to assert themselves in this situation. Say a 14 Yr old is being cornered in a corridor by a peer. There is no one around. They are being increasingly hurt, thumped, whatever. The situation is getting worse. What action should they take?

PS - I wouldn't further reprimand your son for hitting. He is only 4 after all. But I would be telling him hitting is wrong.

I mentioned that I deal with children excluded from school for physical alterations in a regular basis. The primary reason for excluding both parties following physical assault is zero tolerance.

But the secondary reason for not accepting "he started it" is because children will universally massage the truth to paint themself in a better light.

In your situation OP, you are only hearing your sons version. Clearly no adult witnessed the actual violence, or it would have stopped much sooner and no need for your son to try to find a teacher. You are accepting his word where in the incident the hitting came.

I'd put a million quid on the other boy telling his Mum something along the lines of "Hullabaloo9 Junior hit me, then when I went yo tell the teacher he blocked me so I dug my nails into his arm as he was blocking me". So mum might say - Good, you did the right thing hurting Hullabaloo9 Junior. If he hurts you, hurt him right back.

What is to be gained by both children being told their violence was justified? What is that teaching these very young children?

I agree (as someone venomously against violence) to teach to defend themselves.

I got quite a bad time of it after moving schools because it was drilled into me by my mum never to fight. My parents were 16 when they had me so not naive of the next generation - just painfully conscious about them being judged by my actions as young parents. One day a lightbulb moment went off for me and after one time of defending myself (never starting, just defending) I was left well alone. Often troubled children don’t look for fights they look for victims.

Schools aren’t the same as “the real world” and the advice given wouldn’t be the same I’d give to someone in a workplace, uni etc. What you’re considering in defend yourself but give warning is perfect i would say.

I think they have a right to defend themselves and strike back if hit. I wouldn't tell them off for it.

I always told mine (primary school) to give them one warning to stop and then if they don't, push them over/push them away.

I kind of gave the same advice in senior school because the thing about teaching them to hit back is that once they do that, 9 times out of 10 they'll find themselves in an actual fight.

My eldest and my youngest could've held their own in a fight but my middle DC definitely couldn't.

It's so difficult to advise.

Thank you all for sharing.

@FATEdestiny I am not at all concerned about my sons altercation today. It was dealt with fine and a minor thing, it just got me thinking about what approach to take this time around.

I would be beyond livid if my son ever started a fight, or hurt anyone if it wasn't in defence. I know he will always be punished by the school, even for hitting back and quite right. I just feel like sometimes being punished is a small price to pay for having nipped bullying in the bud.

I would certainly take the punishment rather than the bullying... it just feels slightly off to tell that to a child. Like I'm admitting that as adults we actually can't protect him. But it's true, isn't it

[quote Hullabaloo9]@FATEdestiny

How do you teach teenagers to assert themselves in this situation. Say a 14 Yr old is being cornered in a corridor by a peer. There is no one around. They are being increasingly hurt, thumped, whatever. The situation is getting worse. What action should they take?[/quote]
We run courses on de-esculating for those regularly affected. It is effectively Anger Management for teens. If we don't teach these boys (it's usually boys, but not universally) how to stay calm in violent situations - especially when the message of violence being acceptable is reitterate at home - they will become the violent adults of the future. They will be partners and parents.

What you are describing is on going bullying, which is not what you describe with your son. This was just a one-off incident. Most violent alterations I see are one-off.

Bullying has ample opportunity to de-esculate because of the nature of it happening over weeks/months. This needs the child to tell, every time. One violent assault from the bully = one fixed term exclusion (due to zero tolerance on violence policy). Second reported incident means second and much longer fixed term exclusion, plus various courses to change behaviour. Third means perminant exclusion. The main reason sustained bullying incidents go unpunished is because they are not reported.
(NB - support for the victim will also form part of this. I don't deal with that aspect personally though)

Personally I think if a person cannot escape the violence (e.g. they are cornered, or in this case his friend has his nails dug into his arm) they have every right to hit back. Yes he should have shouted out for help first but he is 4 for goodness sake.

I was never taught martial arts as a kid but I learnt in adult life, and I now firmly believe that it would be beneficial to most to have some martial arts training with a school that very definitely taught them self-mastery and that the skills were for self-defence not attack. So my answer would be to send him to a martial arts after school club. Yes even from that age, they do age appropriate work.

@FATEdestiny

Being assertive absolutely does not mean being violent. By teaching children to deesculate you are directly teaching them to be assertive.

Without any intent to be goady here, I am aghast at the suggestion that to be assertive means to sometimes be violent. You clearly have very different ideas to me if you see de-esculating as meek or non-assertive.

Violence isn't a helpful deterrent, no.
Violence isn't the "right answer" to anything!

So some poor kids will get bullied for years potentially, poked here, shoved there, kicked under the table, punched in the arm (all without the teacher knowing most likely, because unless the teacher witnessed it, then it’s surely one child’s word against the other?) So the bully gets away with it most of the time? And the other poor child has to just be a punch bag, because some people suggest it’s morally right?

I don’t think so. More often that not, the bullied child is victimised for being seen as vulnerable and weaker than the bully. Being told to take a beating at the hands of a another child will be more damaging to that child than getting excluded for standing up for themselves and hitting back.

More than likely, the bullied child won’t be hurt again as the bully will know they won’t be victimised!

We run courses on de-esculating for those regularly affected. It is effectively Anger Management for teens. If we don't teach these boys (it's usually boys, but not universally) how to stay calm in violent situations - especially when the message of violence being acceptable is reitterate at home - they will become the violent adults of the future. They will be partners and parents.

That is really interesting. I can appreciate that self regulation isn't taught in school and how beneficial it would be if it was.

I've told all of my children to stand up for themselves and hit back if needed. They better not start something but they can end it and stick up for themselves. I'd do the same now!

I actually can't agree more that we need to teach kids how to stay calm and not escalate situations. 100% I agree.

I still don't see how this translates to what a teenager is supposed to do in an instance where he or she is alone and unable to escape and being hurt. Kids can be brutal and irrational. What strategies could help other than a shove or a kick or a thump? Specifically in that situation.

Again, I am not in anyway referring to my sons scrap at school today. That was just a silly kids falling out, nothing like bullying. It just got me thinking about potential situations in the future

So some poor kids will get bullied for years potentially, poked here, shoved there, kicked under the table, punched in the arm

As per my post above. The only reason bullying is on going is when it is not reported.

That is really interesting. I can appreciate that self regulation isn't taught in school and how beneficial it would be if it was.

It's a shame it is not taught widely across school. But we have courses that our inclusion manager runs for specific pupils, and we make it compulsory to allow them back into school after fixed term exclusion (as part of a risk assessment).

My instructions for DS are 1) tell a teacher the first time 2) if they do it again, do it back. Harder.
DS is taught not to hit first, but he is definitely taught to hit back if need be. It's not ideal but it teaches him not to be walked over, which will hopefully be a life lesson later on.
I've had two teachers speak to me about this. The first came over and said "I have to make it look like I'm speaking to you about not letting kids hit back. I tell my kids to do it too. I just have to tell you it's school rules. OK?" And the second said "DS hit him back. I don't have a problem with that."
DSIL is a teacher too and she taught my niece and nephew the same.
Teaching your child to stand up for themselves is massively important.