Hitting back

[Hullabaloo9]

I am a bit conflicted about how I feel on this one. My ds(4) was involved in a minor alteration at school today. He and a good friend were arguing about something silly. Friend squeezed sons arm and dug in his nails, breaking the skin. Son said he would tell the teacher so friend restrained him to prevent this. Son hit friend. They were both told off by the teacher and are still best of friends. Its just one of those things that happens with kids this age. Six of one and half a dozen of the other. I'm happy with how it was dealt with.

However, it got me thinking, I'm not sure if I really should further reprimand my son for hitting in this instance. Obviously its not ideal and I have always drummed into him that if someone hurts him he should tell the teacher... but if that option is not possible?

I am tempted to tell him (probably when he's a bit older to be honest) that he must first shout out loudly "stop it, you are hurting me" at least 3 times and if no help is available that he can defend himself. In these circumstances he can hit as hard as he can but only once, and then go and find a teacher as soon as possible.

To avoid drip feeding, he is my third child. My older two I definitely followed the school line of no hitting under any circumstances, no retaliation, always just tell a teacher. My middle son suffered some prolonged bullying in upper primary and although being considerably bigger than his bullies he would never ever hit back. Maybe I wish he would have.

Please share honestly how you advise your kids on this issue. I honestly don't know what's the right approach.

If someone assaulted and restrained me I would use self defence to fight them off. I think zero violence is ridiculous and if the law followed that same logic, there would be victims of domestic abuse in prison. I think we owe it to our daughters to teach them it’s ok to fight back.

I think a combo of deescalation & ok to hit back. They need to learn to judge the situation, because as they get older hitting back is not necessarily the safest option.

I hope it has changed since I was a kid, but telling a teacher would result in kids walking behind you chanting 'tell-tale t*t'.

The only playground assistance was from dinner ladies that were usually parents of other children, mostly helping those who had scraped their knee. They stayed out of the playground politics.

Ds 7 has been told that if someone physically hurts him he is allowed to respond.I was bullied for years at school and I was always told to tell a teacher.Fuck that.Bullies are far more likely to think twice if they know they'll get the same back.

Schools can't control bullies even in reception. Your kids need to be able to help themselves.

Not retaliating doesn't work on bullies, it makes you an easy target. What works is hitting them back ten times harder. I'll teach my son never to be the first to start something, to get a teacher or adult when they can and that I will always protect him. But if someone hurts you and there's no one else going to stop them, you damn well defend yourself and make sure they never think to do it again.

@AnUnoriginalUsername yes! If they know they won't be in trouble with their parents, then even that silent confidence will help them.

I've told my kids to walk away and tell. It's worked for us so far. I think telling them it's okay to hit back is crazy - am amazed so many on here are advocating it! If Joe hits Jim then Joe is wrong. If Jim hits him back then both Joe and Jim are wrong. Walk away from any hitting... Good advice whether they're 4, 14 or 24.

I've told my kids to walk away and tell. It's worked for us so far. I think telling them it's okay to hit back is crazy - am amazed so many on here are advocating it! If Joe hits Jim then Joe is wrong. If Jim hits him back then both Joe and Jim are wrong. Walk away from any hitting... Good advice whether they're 4, 14 or 24

And if they can't walk away?

Hitting back should be a last resort, but it should absolutely be used when there are no other options. To think otherwise is pacifist bollocks and shows no understanding of what bullies are like.

Both my DDs were bullied and we were lucky - the school was brilliant and it stopped the moment it was reported. They were absolutely hardcore about coming down on the bullies.

I was bullied at school in the Netherlands in the 80s and de-escalated, and it was fine - but the day one of my friends was being beaten up by someone 3 years older and twice the size, I did the hitting back. It stopped. The deputy head was called in and the person beating up my friend was suspended. No consequences for me because it was in defense of someone who was being attacked. There has to be some natural justice.

Even when bullying is reported it’s not always addressed and I say this as a mother of 3 DC one of which was threatened to be put in hospital amongst other things and the school did fuck all.

I completely agree with de-escalation however if the situation called for it absolutely, self defence is absolutely appropriate. We don’t live in some ideal utopia, there are a lot of violent aggressive bullies and sometimes the only way to deal with them is to hit back, metaphorically and literally. 100% behind standing up for oneself, if someone starts any nonsense.

Mine have been taught to remove themselves from the situation where possible but if it comes down to it, do unto others as they do unto you.

They also know that if they're the ones laying hands on others, the wrath will be biblical in it's scope.

Me and my husband are both teachers and we profoundly disagree on this.
Professionally, obviously, we have to follow the school policy which is always no physical violence ever.

However, for our own children.

I always think that one good hard punch will put off systematic bullies. You've seen Jurassic park where the raptors test the fence for weak spots right? This is what bullies do. They test for people who don't react and have a reaction that allows them a fix. If they get a shock they won't try it again.
I know this works in practice because girl bullies started on both me and my sister. I did the whole non violence ignore thing. 7+ years of bullying. I even had people bullying me in nightclubs when everyone was well into their twenties.
Girls tried it on with my sister. She gave one good punch to a very hard, big girl (both my sister and I are very strong but were slight at school) The girls never bullied her again(though she was a target still for the boys)

DH was a very small child. He mostly didn't get bullied but did get teased. He used to get regularly 'picked up' and swung by the class neanderthal. I do wonder if it would have escalated if he had retaliated. I dread to think because another placid boy they picked on was hung out a third story window regularly.

So I know that not fighting back had bad results for me, good results for my sister and no idea for husband.

But what I will say is that if we don't teach children sometimes it's ok to defend themselves then we're advocating doing nothing when something horrible like a rape happens. (Obviously this mostly effects girls)
And sadly, even though fighting back can result in worse for the girl, courts and police seem to see lack of fighting back as evidence of consent.

I guess my point is there's no right answer op, maybe teach your son that.

Ideally he would shout for help or something but in reality most kids will automatically physically defend themselves. I probably would too.

The problem is that kids don't always have the best judgement with what constitutes self defence and when you can do something less physical.

Oh and just to put self defense in context.
When I was mugged by a bloke and two girls- rugby tackled to the floor and punched until I let go of my bag I rang the police and gave a description. I was mussed up and in shock. The officer asked if I fought back. I said I did, although it was ineffective. He replied they could prosecute me if I'd damaged them. Three people and an unprovoked attack on one girl. It was obvious. I didn't know them they were local thugs and I was a uni.student.
So basically, teach your son to expect no nuance or understanding from authority.
(I do wonder if I had been raped instead of mugged whether my fighting back would have been used as evidence it was non consenting. Who knows)

@musicalfrog

Schools can't control bullies even in reception. Your kids need to be able to help themselves.

I think it's very clear this situation doesn't involve a bully.

As per my post above. The only reason bullying is on going is when it is not reported.

and yet as we know, there are many many reasons why they don't report. One of which is not being believed. Zero tolerance for violence may be ok - but when i was being bullied the only way to make it stop was to hit back. (had reported, teachers didn't want to know)

I attended a really excellent seminar on bully proofing your child with a relatively well know psychologist. He gave excellent advice on deescalating situations , how to respond to verbal taunts etc. He also said that in his 25 years experience 90% of physical bullies only respond to reciprocal physical force if the child felt able.

I worked on the " if someone hits you, hit them back" basis.

If he is physically cornered and alone, what would I do in that situation? In no fighter. I'd curl up into a ball, protect my head and shake my mobile phone (which is emergency responce to call 999) and shout.

You lost me there. Have you ever actually been attacked? I have. And i fought back. And luckily what started off as a flasher who decided to try his luck, didn't turn into a rapist. So no thanks.

There are times when proportionate violence in response is absolutely the right thing.

I wouldn't punish a child at school who hit because they had been scratched and were being held by another child.

I've had conversations with children where they've said parents have told them to hit back. I explain that hitting back when you have the option to walk away and tell me is going to get you into trouble. But if you are being held or it is self defence then you absolutely have a right to push of shove or hit to get away.

We had a police officer come into school and she was asked is it ok to hit or kick in some situations. She explained if being held by someone and they will not let go, hit/kick and run as fast as you can.

I was bullied in school. My parents told me to ignore them, it'll go away, etc. It was a nightmare.

After three years of abuse I finally punched someone in the face. That day I reclaimed my self-esteem. To this day that punch to the face is the best thing I ever did.

If my son is ever bullied I'll tell him to strike hard and fast. If he does it well the first time he'll never need to do it again.

Telling children "zero tolerance on violence" only works if the school makes sure no bullying takes place. If the school don't do their job, it's their fault if the bullied child hits back. And they have to take responsibility for allowing the situation to escalate to this point. Non-physical abuse is still abuse.

I should add, this situation may be different as your son isn't bullied but if he's getting hit he should be able to defend himself - and not be punished for it.