How do farmers reconcile themselves to the volumes of animals they send to slaughter over the course of their lifetimes?

[Empanadas]

Hi, this is something I’ve always wondered. However, I was watching that Netflix series about Prince Charles and the Duchy of Cornwall and there was a farmer showing a whole barn of cattle he has obviously reared from birth, but quite blithely saying, “oh they'll all be off next week.”

AIBU to think being a cattle / sheep / chicken farmer takes a certain type of person and to wonder how they deal with their conscience in this depressing business?

Mozambique blame Mumsnet. You can't quote a post with a post in it! And on the App you can't see other posts when you reply.

And it's easy enough to work out, anyway.

You are the one talking about lab grown meat

OP is the one bemoaning whataboutery.

It isn't hard to keep track.

I don’t see how farmers are any different to the people that are buying the meat/animal products

I love how people are saying “farmers feel xyz” when you literally have farmers on this thread telling you how they operate and feel about the industry, what they like about parts and what they don’t like. But you tell us how we feel as one homogenous group

Anyway thanks to the previous poster about veganism and green, makes me feel good! What doesn’t is affordability - my friends and their families just can’t afford vegan, they have cut down on meat but can’t afford that diet. I don’t expect them too either, and the kids eat what they want.

Anyway… the market forces are consumers. If you want lab grown meat / no meat it is for you as consumers to drive that. Change isn’t driven by complaining at farmers - do you speak to your fellow consumers, to supermarkets, to your MP? It is a fractured market but the one bulk piece and driving force is the consumer. One thing you can know is the range of farms out there - small family farms, corporate owned farms, smallholdings and everything in between. One has no control over the other (though we have reported bad practice). You as consumer have control over ALL.

If you want change… you literally are the changing force. Research - properly, and in real life - educate others on what you know is true (and IG and FB are not reliable), and don’t impose your beliefs on others! It’s all personal choice.

*Airyfairymarybeary

I don’t see how farmers are any different to the people that are buying the meat/animal products*

This with bells on.

It’s their job in the same way fisherman kill fish.

Do people genuinely not think the world would be a better place without beef farming? Even if we could eradicate that it would be a start.

No it doesn’t take a particular kind of person, if you are brought up with it you are used to it. Most of us eat animal products of some sort.

Most UK farmers treat their livestock well - but they do think of the animals as livestock - they are bred for food.

I think all the knicker twisting about animals is a very privilege attitude.

couldn't agree more.

Made even worse and hypocritical when discussed on a device as environmentally damaging as a computer/phone/tablet.

Do you also want to replace leather with plastic?

@Empanadas

Do people genuinely not think the world would be a better place without beef farming? Even if we could eradicate that it would be a start.

🤭 bloody hell if only beef farming was the thing we could tick off the list and the world be a better place! Tell you what, cows will no doubt go down with us once climate change kicks in properly. Then we’ll all sit in the same hand basket on our way to hell.

How do some vegans live with the knowledge that growing all the soya, nuts and avocados and then getting them shipped around the world is contributing to the destruction of rainforests and habitats of endangered animals?

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Lab grown meat won't mean no cruelty. There will still need to be stock animals for source material.

Lab cows rather than mice.

Herds of them, to ensure the breed survives long enough to feed us.

And it's not even close yet. As in it can be done but isn't cost effective or scaleable. And that's while there are existing animals to get their source cells from.

Technically you can cultivate source cells in a lab. So once you have the system set up, you wouldn't ever need an animal again. But since populations of cows, pigs, chicekens, etc. will almost certainly be maintained by humans somehow even if we all stop eating them, and seeing as taking stem cells from them involves no cruelty, then yes I'd say lab-grown meat is cruelty free.

But anyway there's no point splitting hairs. You could argue that raising cows in fields and extracting stem cells from them is cruel (some vegans would, I'm sure) but it would still be on a TINY scale compared to the traditional global meat industry.

As for not even being close yet... Depends on your idea of close I suppose. It's been proven viable enough that scaling the technology is inevitable. The demand is undeniable. AT Kearney wrote a report a couple of years ago saying they think 60% of meat will be lab-grown by 2040. I'd say that's close. Certainly within the next few decades it will become the main source. I'd imagine replacing major "factory" style farms and leaving smaller more ethical ones as a kind of niche/luxury product.

Arguing that it's not gonna happen is like people arguing that self-driving cars aren't going to happen.

@Empanadas

Do people genuinely not think the world would be a better place without beef farming? Even if we could eradicate that it would be a start.

Again, how?

I asked upthread, mainly because it is something I have considered, realistically.

The first step cannot be haranguing people with misinformation or emotionally loaded anthropomorphism.

@Airyfairymarybeary

I don’t see how farmers are any different to the people that are buying the meat/animal products

Aren't they theorectically worse if you go by this logic.

They let other people do the dirty work and emotionally disconnect themselves from the process.

Personally, I think eating meat is a pretty human and civilised thing if you think about animal welfare up to that point and understand there is a need to eat.

@rachelstriffle

Do you also want to replace leather with plastic?

That’s an interesting question for the vegans

Plastic is terrible for the earth and when broken down, becomes microplastic which is worse

Leather at least breaks down naturally eventually

@Empanadas

Do people genuinely not think the world would be a better place without beef farming? Even if we could eradicate that it would be a start.

Nah, I enjoy a burger and a nice pair of leather shoes! Not ashamed of that.

@ChangePart1 your comment is completely wrong. Total bollocks.

My GPs weren't farmers per se but they had a huge garden, a field and a huge yard with animals such as ducks, bunnies, geese, chicken and pigs. Those animals only existed to be food but during their lives, they were very well taken care of. My GPs made sure they had a great life, freedom outside, good quality food. Ultimately though, they were not pets, they were the dinner, lunch, scrambled eggs etc.
They had a great life and a very swift death. They were not grown in a fungi factory like vegan sausages, no human had to suffer to make them available for food like it's with cashew nuts. My Grandparents raised and harvested most of their food, it was all local and organic.

@Juststopasking

How do some vegans live with the knowledge that growing all the soya, nuts and avocados and then getting them shipped around the world is contributing to the destruction of rainforests and habitats of endangered animals?

Hahahaha good call this one!

Empanadas maybe - but what part of beef farming do you mean, the small holding or the factory farm? Are you thinking of E/W/S farms only or Irish, European and S American? Is this for green credentials - if so this usually becomes a very middle class discussion of how we shouldn’t have beef but we all want to go abroad for holidays broadbrush doesn’t really work on farming strategies tbh

*That’s an interesting question for the vegans

Plastic is terrible for the earth and when broken down, becomes microplastic which is worse

Leather at least breaks down naturally eventually*

The leather replacement is happening. My mum was moaning that often when she sees a nice bag in a cheaper (not cheapest) range, it's fake leather plasticky stuff.

Remembering you cannot quote a post with a quote in...

... I didn't say it won't happen. Just that it won't happen imminently or cleanly, animal free, initially.

You are replicating OPs error, leaping to the end of the process.

I really can't see why people have problems with farmers if they eat meat themselves! Isn't that a tad hypocritical??? But I do think people in the future will look back in horror at the way we now treat animals. To be honest I think there are a lot of cases where farm animals are treated inhumanely, kept in crowded conditions etc. Cows pumped with hormones to make them give milk. I think hunting the occasional animal for food is very different from modern farming. The reality is we eat far more meat than is "natural" (whatever that means). If we reduced our meat consumption, likelihood is we would be healthier and it would be far better than the environment. Vegans might well be tiresome but they are prob right. I think suffragettes and those against slavery were likely also accused of being "tiresome bores". But ultimately they were right!

I don't see the point of hypothesising on "what if everyone stopped eating meat tomorrow"? That obviously won't ever happen. It will be a gradual process. Most producers will go out of business or change their business over years as demand for meat from alternative sources increases. Same as with any changing business sector.

Many major meat companies in the US are already diversifying because they know its coming

The welfare standard in this country is far better than the soon to be Australian imported meat that's for sure.

@Empanadas you have ignored all of us who are farming who have explained in quite simple terms why beef farming is important in terms of land management and soil fertility and you're being overly emotive about it.

It is fine to have a different view but dismissing facts regarding land management because they don't suit your agenda is just ignorance.

What we need is people supporting local, sustainable agriculture rather than cheap imports produced in countries who don't have any welfare standards.