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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How do farmers reconcile themselves to the volumes of animals they send to slaughter over the course of their lifetimes?

999 replies

Empanadas · 15/06/2021 13:44

Hi, this is something I’ve always wondered. However, I was watching that Netflix series about Prince Charles and the Duchy of Cornwall and there was a farmer showing a whole barn of cattle he has obviously reared from birth, but quite blithely saying, “oh they'll all be off next week.”

AIBU to think being a cattle / sheep / chicken farmer takes a certain type of person and to wonder how they deal with their conscience in this depressing business?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 15/06/2021 16:26

@Empanadas

“We see life and death upfront, every new life is a joy, every untimely loss is a sadness. All of it is a privilege. “

How is presiding over the economically optimum time for mass death a privilege? Confused This reads like some kind of god complex, if I may say so.

You can say it. However it makes you look like a religious zealot, if I may so.
kikisparks · 15/06/2021 16:28

@Backstreetsbackalrightdadada it’s not really bad for the planet to be vegan as most emissions are generated at the production not the transport stage. You being vegan is actually very good for the planet:

citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.511.7351&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Much of the estimated 35% of global greenhouse-gas emissions deriving from agriculture and land use35 comes from livestock production. Livestock production—including deforestation for grazing land and soy-feed production, soil carbon loss in grazing lands, the energy used in growing feed-grains and in processing and transporting grains and meat, nitrous oxide releases from the use of nitrogenous fertilisers, and gases from animal manure (especially methane) and enteric fermentation44—accounts for about 18% of global greenhouse-gas emissions (figure 2).42 This estimate consists of around 9% of global emissions of carbon dioxide, plus 35–40% of methane emissions and 65% of nitrous oxide, both of which have much greater near-term warming potential over several ensuing decades than does carbon doxide (although they have shorter half-lives in the atmosphere). Similar estimates exist of the contributions of UK farming, live-stock production, and the food chain overall, to national greenhouse-gas emissions.45r

Health professionals warn that the use of antibiotics early on in the food chain, with farmers administering drugs to animals to promote growth rather than treat disease, is a particular problem

www.tabledebates.org/node/12335

This report finds that better management of grass-fed livestock, while worthwhile in and of itself, does not offer a significant solution to climate change as only under very specific conditions can they help sequester carbon. This sequestering of carbon is even then small, time-limited, reversible and substantially outweighed by the greenhouse gas emissions these grazing animals generate. The report concludes that although there can be other benefits to grazing livestock - solving climate change isn’t one of them.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/blow-for-grass-fed-beef-as-new-report-suggests-its-part-of-the-climate-problem-not-solution-36209259.html

But at an aggregate level the emissions generated by these grazing systems still outweigh the removals and even assuming improvements in productivity, they simply cannot supply us with all the animal protein we currently eat. They are even less able to provide us with the quantities of meat and milk that our growing and increasingly more affluent population apparently wants to consume. Significant expansion in overall numbers would cause catastrophic land use change and other environmental damage. This is especially the case if one adopts a very ‘pure’ definition of a grazing system, the sort that grazing advocates tend to portray, where livestock are reared year-round on grass that is not fertilised with mineral fertilisers, receiving no additional nutritional supplementation, and at stocking densities that support environmental goals.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-020-02673-x

“Grazing systems emit greenhouse gases, which can, under specific agro-ecological conditions, be partly or entirely offset by soil carbon sequestration. However, any sequestration is time-limited, reversible, and at a global level outweighed by emissions from grazing systems. Thus, grazing systems are globally a net contributor to climate change.”

www.wwf.org.uk/sites/default/files/2017-10/WWF_AppetiteForDestruction_Summary_Report_SignOff.pdf

“Today, protein-rich soy is such an important feed ingredient that the average European consumes approximately 61kg of soy per year, largely indirectly through the animal products that they eat like chicken, pork, salmon, cheese, milk and eggs. In 2010, the British livestock industry needed an area the size of Yorkshire to produce the soy used in feed. And if the global demand for animal products grows as anticipated, it’s estimated that soy production would need to increase by nearly 80% to feed all the animals destined for our plates.”

pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es702969f

“buying local” could achieve, at maximum, around a 4−5% reduction in GHG emissions due to large sources of both CO2 and non-CO2 emissions in the production of food. Shifting less than 1 day per week’s (i.e., 1/7 of total calories) consumption of red meat and/or dairy to other protein sources or a vegetable-based diet could have the same climate impact as buying all household food from local providers.”

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181023110627.htm

“A new study provides a more comprehensive accounting of the greenhouse gas emissions from EU diets. It shows that meat and dairy products are responsible for the lion's share of greenhouse emissions from the EU diet.”

“The study found that meat and dairy account for more than 75% of the impact from EU diets. That's because meat and dairy production causes not only direct emissions from animal production, but also contributes to deforestation from cropland expansion for feed, which is often produced outside of the EU.”

“"People tend to think that consuming locally will be the solution to climate change, but it turns out that the type of product we eat is much more important for the overall impact," says IIASA researcher Hugo Valin, a study coauthor and Sandström's YSSP advisor. "Europeans are culturally attached to meat and dairy product consumption.”

science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987

“Today, and probably into the future, dietary change can deliver environmental benefits on a scale not achievable by producers. Moving from current diets to a diet that excludes animal products (table S13) (35) has transformative potential, reducing food’s land use by 3.1 (2.8 to 3.3) billion ha (a 76% reduction), including a 19% reduction in arable land; food’s GHG emissions by 6.6 (5.5 to 7.4) billion metric tons of CO2eq (a 49% reduction); acidification by 50% (45 to 54%); eutrophication by 49% (37 to 56%); and scarcity-weighted freshwater withdrawals by 19% (−5 to 32%) for a 2010 reference year.”

eatforum.org/content/uploads/2019/01/EAT-Lancet_Commission_Summary_Report.pdf

“However, even small increases in the con- sumption of red meat or dairy foods would make this goal difficult or impossible to achieve. The analysis shows that staying within the safe operating space for food systems requires a combination of substan- tial shifts toward mostly plant-based dietary patterns.”

If you want to eat a variety of local seasonal plant based foods as part of your diet there are still plenty of options at various times of the year- Kale, mushrooms, strawberries, pears, apples, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, onions, leeks, potatoes, turnips, carrots, wheat, barley, oats, rapeseed oil, peas, beans, sugar beet, celery, celeriac, artichokes, spinach, tomatoes, spring onions, squash, broccoli, parsnips, radishes, water cress, rhubarb, cucumber, asparagus, beetroot, cauliflower, lettuce, berries, shallots, garlic, sweetcorn, pumpkins, loads of herbs and more. Quinoa, courgettes, buckwheat, sweet potatoes, hazelnuts, sweet chestnuts, almonds, walnuts, sunflower seeds and various beans can also be produced in UK it’s just afaik not done to scale yet.

UhtredRagnarson · 15/06/2021 16:28

@Empanadas

And what about lambs and veal? How old are these animals when you kill them?
I’m not sure I understand the relevance of the animals age at death in your argument. Why does it matter if the lamb is killed a year earlier for meat than another sheep?
Soubriquet · 15/06/2021 16:28

@Empanadas

Lola - Thankyou for you reply, but can I ask how you know animals don’t anticipate?

I tend to think most animals are more intuitive than humans.

Because they are animals

Animals live in the now. They don’t have the mind set to see to the future.

Yes they can sense things we can’t, like a mum killing her newborn because she can sense there is something wrong with it, but they don’t go on to a lorry and know they are going to death.

They will smell the pheromones and will know something is happening as they will smell the stress but they don’t instinctively know it leads to death

June2021 · 15/06/2021 16:30

@ChangePart1

They don't see them as living, breathing, individual beings. They certainly don't see them as having any intrinsic rights or worth beyond financial.

To them it's the same as if they were growing crops and then sending them off to distributers. They don't see themselves as having anything to come to terms with or reconcile themselves to.

And I agree, it definitely takes a certain sort of person. But I think it takes a certain sort of person to be able to eat animal products, work in an abattoir, or carry out animal testing too.

Biscuit
Bluethrough · 15/06/2021 16:30

[quote vulpesfoxtrot]@Bluethrough as the daughter of a dairy farmer I can confirm that you are lying. That is just simply not correct.[/quote]
@vulpesfoxtrot

What part? Do you retire cows to a quiet part of the farm that can no longer calve or whose yield drops?
Do you keep a cow that is lame doesn't respond to antibiotics? and is in constant pain?

If you genuinely loved an animal, you'd not kill them.

I have worked on farms for over many years and tbh i sometimes wonder why i eat meat, some the practices i saw were inhumane and the animals know they are off to slaughter, i don't know to what extent.
But on one occasion that cow knew, even the herdsmen sensed it and he was a hard bugger,

My favourite cow was 129 (shortened) she was a right little character, i was glad i left that farm before she went to slaughter.

Iceniii · 15/06/2021 16:30

My personal and high level (e.g. I'm not thinking every scenario here) belief is, that rich nations who can access food readily should eat far less animal product. I believe we consume far more than is healthy for a person. It would help improve health, the environment and animal wellbeing.

I really believe, as we evolve and science grows that we will move away from consuming animals. That is, if we haven't destroyed our environment first.

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 15/06/2021 16:32

All the vegans I know are always ill and on state benefits from the mysterious illnesses they have and so that they can live in communes, take drugs and preach how fantastic they are whilst everyone else works to pay for their life style. They would probably feel a lot better if they ate meat.

Sparrowsong · 15/06/2021 16:32

@ChangePart1

They don't see them as living, breathing, individual beings. They certainly don't see them as having any intrinsic rights or worth beyond financial.

To them it's the same as if they were growing crops and then sending them off to distributers. They don't see themselves as having anything to come to terms with or reconcile themselves to.

And I agree, it definitely takes a certain sort of person. But I think it takes a certain sort of person to be able to eat animal products, work in an abattoir, or carry out animal testing too.

Agreed!
Femme99 · 15/06/2021 16:33

@ChangePart1 - I agree with everything you say, the thing is, if the truth is presented to people, it hits their conscience and they naturally need to fight back to justify themselves. Someone once said, “If you couldn’t slit the throat of a living being, then why pay for others to do it, just to satisfy your conscience!”

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/06/2021 16:34

How is trying to explore your "imagine all meat eating stopped tomorrow" whataboutery?

Or was my answer a bit too considered?

MozambiqueHere · 15/06/2021 16:35

@Backstreetsbackalrightdadada

The UK couldn’t farm enough arable for us all to be vegan, too much of the land couldn’t support arable, or support the range of arable needed for a liveable diet, and anyway the farming would all need to be non-organic to ensure decent yield. So the solution really is a lower population, basically the most ethical thing is to stop having kids.

Anyway my answer is to push for more visibility on slaughter and it being done ethically, and slaughterhouse workers being supported and well paid.

The answer is lab-grown meat. Requires much less space, no cruelty, everyone still gets to eat meat, etc.
BasicallyBookish · 15/06/2021 16:36

My Grandad was a farmer and exempted from serving in the forces during WW2 due to being a job that was vital to the nation. His father and grandfather were farmers too and he took over the family farm once old enough, post war. My Gran was sent to be a land girl in the war (how they met) - for neither of them was it a choice, it was their duty as part of feeding the nation in a time of hardship. And they did it well, with compassion.
To see that dismissed and them described as “a certain type of person” is offensive.

Femme99 · 15/06/2021 16:37

Not to mention the damage a meat diet does to the planet but that’s a whole other thread. Also the antibiotics that are given to land animals that are sick because they don’t want them to die and lose money.

mustlovegin · 15/06/2021 16:38
Biscuit

Perhaps they know that there are humans that need feeding??

MozambiqueHere · 15/06/2021 16:39

@CuriousaboutSamphire

How is trying to explore your "imagine all meat eating stopped tomorrow" whataboutery?

Or was my answer a bit too considered?

I don't think anyone is sure who you're addressing because you don't use the quote function or even copy and bold paste the post of the person you're replying to.
user1471505494 · 15/06/2021 16:40

@ChangePart1

They don't see them as living, breathing, individual beings. They certainly don't see them as having any intrinsic rights or worth beyond financial.

To them it's the same as if they were growing crops and then sending them off to distributers. They don't see themselves as having anything to come to terms with or reconcile themselves to.

And I agree, it definitely takes a certain sort of person. But I think it takes a certain sort of person to be able to eat animal products, work in an abattoir, or carry out animal testing too.

I can’t believe how ignorant you are about what happens on a livestock farm. These farmers spend hours caring for their animals and making sure they have a good quality of life Lambing, carvings and farrowing is hard work usually at unsociable hours with expensive vet call outs if needed. To watch farmers bottle feeding babies whose mothers are unable to rear them requires a lot of extra hours Trying to make sure that their animals have as natural a life as possible with fresh air and turnout whilst nature itself makes it hard with floods droughts and unseasonal weather Yes they go into a food chain that many people like and benefit from even though you don’t. Many farmers are sad to see their stock leave but happy in the knowledge that they have given their animals a good life .
AnyOldPrion · 15/06/2021 16:41

I’m a vet. I’ve worked in small animal practice, large animal practice and in a slaughterhouse. I currently work in a welfare advisory role.

There are a few bad farmers (the worst are likely to go out of business, because unhealthy animals are not profitable).

Stressed animals at the time of slaughter do indeed produce poor quality meat. There are doubtless some awful slaughter houses, but it is in their interest to be otherwise.

Personal experience suggests that the worst animal cruelty comes from dog and cat owners who fail to put their beloved pets to sleep soon enough.

disgruntledemployee · 15/06/2021 16:42

A lot of psychological research has been published showing it takes an insane toll on the person. They need to be as distanced as possible to get up each day.

OccaChocca · 15/06/2021 16:43

Most of the farmers I know have been born into that life. It's what they know.

I know a butcher and remember him saying that transporting animals over long distances (i.e. on the continent) was wrong. Despite his trade he still cared about their welfare.

KeepingTrack · 15/06/2021 16:43

I think all the knicker twisting about animals is a very privilege attitude.
There is a reason why people are eating more and more meat as they move from really poor countries to not as poor ones.

Meat is making a huge difference to their quality of life, the quality of their diet etc… that’s an unfortunate fact that eating meat helps people be healthier. (Not even going into the whole dairy issue).
But more to the point, a vegan diet in industrialised countries means a reliance on products who are coming from far away. Something people in poorer countries just can’t afford to do.
See for example issues with iron deficiencies in those countries because they don’t have access the same amount of meat we do. Or the ‘right’ vegetarian options that would bridge that gap.

KeepingTrack · 15/06/2021 16:45

@AnyOldPrion

I’m a vet. I’ve worked in small animal practice, large animal practice and in a slaughterhouse. I currently work in a welfare advisory role.

There are a few bad farmers (the worst are likely to go out of business, because unhealthy animals are not profitable).

Stressed animals at the time of slaughter do indeed produce poor quality meat. There are doubtless some awful slaughter houses, but it is in their interest to be otherwise.

Personal experience suggests that the worst animal cruelty comes from dog and cat owners who fail to put their beloved pets to sleep soon enough.

👏👏👏
CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/06/2021 16:45

Lab grown meat won't mean no cruelty. There will still need to be stock animals for source material.

Lab cows rather than mice.

Herds of them, to ensure the breed survives long enough to feed us.

And it's not even close yet. As in it can be done but isn't cost effective or scaleable. And that's while there are existing animals to get their source cells from.

pissface · 15/06/2021 16:46

I don't think some of the attitudes on here are very nice, I only keep female chickens so I know my chickens eggs are never fertilised and that's the only animal product I eat, still think some people on here sound nasty though.

me4real · 15/06/2021 16:46

It's not complicated.

It's how they make a living.

A lot of us do unsavoury/unethical things to have money to live on.