How do farmers reconcile themselves to the volumes of animals they send to slaughter over the course of their lifetimes?

[Empanadas]

Hi, this is something I’ve always wondered. However, I was watching that Netflix series about Prince Charles and the Duchy of Cornwall and there was a farmer showing a whole barn of cattle he has obviously reared from birth, but quite blithely saying, “oh they'll all be off next week.”

AIBU to think being a cattle / sheep / chicken farmer takes a certain type of person and to wonder how they deal with their conscience in this depressing business?

Far too many vegans on here who have watched two Netflix documentaries and think they understand how an entire industry operates.

And who live in London and base their "opinions" on the city farm at the bottom of their road.

Does anyone on here actually know any farmers?!

Most probably not. They draw all their conclusions from a very biased Netflix series indoctrination

@Juststopasking

How do some vegans live with the knowledge that growing all the soya, nuts and avocados and then getting them shipped around the world is contributing to the destruction of rainforests and habitats of endangered animals?

But avocados are trendy so they can't be expected to go without!

I’m not claiming to have all the answers. It’s an open forum and I’m asking what’s on my mind.

The industry in trading in blood and there no two ways about it.

I hate shopping in supermarkets yes, because the meat and fish counters are there, very unfortunately, and to me, it’s like walking through death. Scoff all you like, but just how I always felt since a very small child.

People say, “Oh the countryside is so beautiful,” but all I see is death on the hillsides. It’s ruins the landscape for me. I’m not the only one.

Definitely, the large scale battery farms should be banned tomorrow. Yes, it produces cheaper meat, but there should be no price on life, frankly. The whole concept is fundamentally flawed. People, regardless of their economic status, don’t need to eat meat. They just think they do because this is all they’ve ever known. They can eat something else. It’s not a binary case of “no cheap beef / lamb / chicken = starve.”

And air miles, vulpes

We shop locally. I have been called a bore here for this before (by a vociferous vegetarian 😊)

Seasonal produce - but then there is canned foods and bottles of things like soy sauce, pepper, all sorts of herbs and spices.

Local produce. Until quite recently much of the food I ate had travelled farther to be processed than it did from the farmer to my table. A new small, local abbatoir solved that problem for local meat producers, and meant they could guarantee the conditions there too.

Farm shops and garden gate sales can only go so far though. And an allotment doesn't provide enough all year round for 2 adults, let alone a family.

Yet I know, because of those carbon footprint calculators, that my meat eating, dog owning, self employed life has a lower carbon footprint than most. Purely because I actively avoid food miles and cleaning chemicals and choose to buy most of my clothes from charity shops, being good with a needle and thread, with or without a sewing machine, helps.

@ChangePart1

They don't see them as living, breathing, individual beings. They certainly don't see them as having any intrinsic rights or worth beyond financial.

To them it's the same as if they were growing crops and then sending them off to distributers. They don't see themselves as having anything to come to terms with or reconcile themselves to.

And I agree, it definitely takes a certain sort of person. But I think it takes a certain sort of person to be able to eat animal products, work in an abattoir, or carry out animal testing too.

That's rubbish. Have you ever visited a real farm? Talked to a real farmer?

@Juststopasking The WWF report I linked to above shows that an area the size of Yorkshire is needed to farm soya to feed animals used for food in the U.K. The destruction of the rainforest is largely due to the grazing of animals used for food there or the growing (and subsequent export) of animal feed for animals used for food. On the other hand soya used for human consumption in the U.K. is not GMO and is grown in Europe. It can in fact be grown in the U.K. and is, on a very small scale.

Brazil nuts are as far as I know the only nuts grown in rainforests. The purchase of Brazil nuts might actually be beneficial however wwf.panda.org/?4303/La-castana-del-Para-que-podria-salvar-el-Amazonas

Avocados are not without their issues but are mostly eaten by non vegans, are not essential and could be less problematic in future as they can be grown in Europe with Spain hoping to produce 1.15 million tons in 2023.

@Empanadas

Do people genuinely not think the world would be a better place without beef farming? Even if we could eradicate that it would be a start.

No I don’t think the world would be a better place.

I think the world will be a better place when everyone has access to an adequate diet. When we will stop overusing ressources (that doesn’t mean stopping eating meat, see point before). And when we will finally start treating HUMANS with respect, lol of them. And by that I mean no more slavery (eg for mining all the rare minerals used in mobile phones and the likes), the right to education for women etc…

The only way I agree with you re beef in particular is because of its impact n the environment. But then, I would have more problems with cheese and yoghurt than with meat because they are more environmentally costly.

I hate shopping in supermarkets yes, because the meat and fish counters are there, very unfortunately, and to me, it’s like walking through death. Scoff all you like, but just how I always felt since a very small child.

People say, “Oh the countryside is so beautiful,” but all I see is death on the hillsides. It’s ruins the landscape for me. I’m not the only one.

Oh knock it off with the hyperbole. You must have a very miserable life if all you can see when you’re out and about is death.

You might want to look at some theraltn

Therapy*

Walking through death...

OK!

I have heard of farmers who have gone vegan, because they have witnessed first hand how commercial farming leaves little room for animal welfare.

I don't believe in killing, so I couldn't raise livestock.

I don't think it's fair to overly blame livestock farmers, when everyone who eats meat plays a role in the cruelty and death involved. Less people eating meat will make a difference (to animal welfare, health, the environment)

You’re right there @kikisparks, if you are talking about beef farming in the US which is all indoors and using animal feeds.

The situation is countries such as the U.K. is different, let alone eating meat from a cow you’ve raised yourself in let’s say South africa.

However, this is not what the OP is talking about. She is all about not killing any animal at all….

OP, in brief, you can believe what you like, and you are entitled to an opinion. But you cannot dictate to others what to do.

So all the wording about 'banning' in your posts is inappropriate

I meant to add palm oil is obviously also an issue for the rainforest alongside animal agriculture and growing feed for animals used in animal agriculture. Again it is predominantly consumed by non vegans and many vegans avoid it, but it’s also not a black and white issue as if manufacturers didn’t use palm oil they’d have to use another oil that would need more space to grow.

@Holshicup

The welfare standard in this country is far better than the soon to be Australian imported meat that's for sure.

I'm hoping the country or origin is clearly marked so I can buy British Beef.

Do people genuinely not think the world would be a better place without beef farming? Even if we could eradicate that it would be a start.

I always find it interesting that people focus on the 'charismatic' animals in these discussions - the cows and the sheep, basically the animals with eyelashes - rather than looking at the net environmental impact or the relative welfare position of different kinds of meat.

We have little to no industrialised beef or lamb farming in the UK and we don't tend to run to indoor fattening as in some European countries - and the basic welfare standards aren't perfect but are a lot better than other countries and certainly a lot better than chicken. Part of that is about different influences on the quality of the meat and what the market rewards, and I'm sure part of it is that people don't care as much about chickens.

In terms of the UK footprint, from a total carbon perspective chicken is now worse than beef - particularly when you take soy consumption into account. And standards for poultry are objectively much lower than the equivalents for ruminants - and imports will be even lower welfare, because it simply isn't possible to produce £5 supermarket chicken in a natural environment, or even higher welfare indoor environments.

But no eyelashes. So.

People say, “Oh the countryside is so beautiful,” but all I see is death on the hillsides. It’s ruins the landscape for me. I’m not the only one.

Think you need some serious counselling OP. That’s just isn’t normal

There are good and bad farmers, those that provide the best possible life for their livestock, those that don't. And there's plenty of evidence for both. But I can't kid myself that separating a dairy cow from it's calf, keeping sows in farrowing crates, hens in cages, the methods of killing male chicks, the production of down feathers etc, and anything to do with the slaughter process of any animal is humane, without fear and terror for the animal. Animals are sentient, that's where it begins and ends for me.

And no, I hold my hands up that I have never been to a farm or talked to a real farmer. I wouldn’t want to, I’m sorry.

I understand people say we are supposed to eat meat and this is a necessary evil. I accept that is their prerogative and I understand them to some extent. I just don’t feel the same, obviously.

But I didn’t come on to hear whatever about global warming and air miles and soya and whatever. I didn’t actually come on to discuss veganism either. Quite happy to start a thread on any of those, but this is not it.

It was a specific question about how farmers reconcile sending animals to slaughter? Just on a basic human or very broad spiritual level (not necessarily religious) do you ever doubt the morality of what you do?

I often go on these threads because I'm a sheep farmer. Nobody ever changes their mind. Farmers deal with life and death all the time. One of my rams died in the field unexpectedly. Me and my shepherd cried like babies.

@KeepingTrack The figure quoted for soya in animal feed in the report I linked relates to the U.K. not the US. I suspect it will be mostly fed to pigs and chickens who are much more intensively reared here than cows and sheep are, although some of the latter may still be given grains and soya. The article on the problems with grazing animals and how carbon sequestration is not the answer relates to Europe. Personally I disagree with killing healthy sentient beings but am responding purely to the environmental argument here.

It’s not a binary case of “no cheap beef / lamb / chicken = starve.”

I think you might want to get out of your bubble and look a bit further away than LOndon and the U.K. Go and see what is happening in much poorer countries and why being able to eat meat is such a privilege.

Plus I’d like to remind you that p, in the olden days, we were Hunter gatherers. The key word here being HUNTERS. Some populations were mainly ‘vegans’ others were mainly carnivores. There isnt such a thing as human being genetically devised to be vegan and not eating meat (or fish or dairy etc….).

The above obviously only goes for UK-reared beef; the way beef is reared in some other countries is an environmental disaster.

I still find the over-steering on beef really interesting. For myself and my family, we eat a lot less meat than we used to, partly because of the cost of buying meat that has been produced in higher-welfare, lower-environmental impact systems. That's getting us back closer to how meat used to be seen as part of people's diet.

There's a lot of recalibrating to do if we're going to get the overall impact of meat and dairy production in the world into an environmentally sustainable space (and the Australian trade deal is a bit of disaster on that front). People not eating meat is obviously great from that POV but not all meat and dairy production is created equal, and vilifying farmers as sociopaths isn't going to achieve anything useful either.

Interesting @kikisparks.
Most of the data I have come across is mainly based on American data and the way they are farming is very different.