that the idea of registration for cyclists is silly, unworkable and unenforceable

[KihoBebiluPute]

This idea was featured on Radio 4 on monday morning and is also in the telegraph - Nick Freeman (the motorists loophole lawyer) is trying to drum up support for a scheme to force cyclists to register and display a number plate type thing.

I get that there are plenty of selfish and sometimes dangerous cyclists out there, but the numbers of deaths and injuries caused by dangerous cycling is a minuscule fraction of the numbers caused by careless driving and the whole idea seems totally unrealistic to me.

(1) For number plates to work as a reasonably reliable registration method for cars, the manufacture of number plates has to be quite tightly controlled - criminals do clone plates but it's not easy for an ordinary member of the public to get a plate without proof of ownership, and plates are fixed to the correct car and generally stay put. Any kind of wearable registration plate for cyclists would necessarily be something portable and would therefore be so easy to lose or nick that it would be functionally useless as a means of identification because there couldn't be any means to verifiably ensure that each plate was only ever carried by the correctly registered individual associated with that number plate.

(2) cyclists don't come into the world as fully formed MAMILs - and the sight of a 6 year old wobbling along the pavement next to a parent is quite normal. There's no sharp divide between a kid just learning and a fully independent cyclist, no test to pass or license to grant. There's just a gradual build up of skills and road-sense and a gradual reduction in parental supervision. so there's no rational way to define when someone should start being registered (presumably no one thinks it should apply to kids who are just learning)

(3) its frankly stupid to put up any kind of additional barrier to make it more complicated to make a trip by bike rather than getting in the car. It's currently just about a reasonable balance for me for a lot of journeys - a tiny bit of extra hassle to find my helmet and D-lock, but the benefit of not having to find or pay for parking balances that enough that some fraction of the car-miles I might otherwise make, generating traffic congestion and pollution, gets turned into the green alternative of cycling. Upset this balance by making it a legal requirement to wear and carry this proposed registration plate and the net effect will be to drive up car traffic at a time when we should be doing everything we can to achieve the opposite.

@midgedude

I think no one should be allowed to take a driving test until they have completed at least 1000 miles on a bike so they know what it feels like to be exposed to drivers who pass way to close , drive into the cycle box at traffic lights and pedestrians who step out without looking

So people with certain disabilities wouldn’t be allowed to drive, nice.

@TwoTimingPotatoSalad. Ten year olds need to learn how to be independent. Next year in secondary school, many will go to school alone. Very few parents have the time or inclination to chaperone a bicycling tween around town to see family and friends, running errands, and so on. Bike registration is just another way to restrict movement.

My daughter rides horses and our local bridleway has become a total no go area for horses recently due to the dangerous behaviour of certain cyclists using it as a race track. Shouting abuse, passing horses much too fast and far too close. DD had a nasty fall when one actually chucked his bike at her pony and her pony spooked.

This. The Royal Parks do have regulations on speeding that apply to cyclists and they regularly clock them doing in excess of the 20mph limit, 47mph on one occasion. To drive around the parks at 20mph is to find yourself swarmed by cyclists over and undertaking and showing no regard for pedestrians or wildlife. I have witnessed the Dynamo cycle club sending teenage riders along a 10mph pedestrian priority path on speed trials, cycling as fast as they could, obviously well beyond the 10mph limit, where there have been incidents of pedestrians and pets being hit. Great way to educate them to cycle safely. I have also had a cyclist whistle past my ear doing at least 20mph on a pedestrian only rough path. I would think twice before taking my children cycling on the cycle track where they will just be regarded as a risk to some Lycra clad idiots PB. They are a risk to themselves and others, and it is not a small minority, it is the majority, and lockdowns just bought out more of them, even more ignorant. The sense of entitlement to treat our public parks and paths as a velodrome is systemic. They were even banned from the park during Covid because the majority were breaking the regulations.

Quite a few dog walkers now wear webcams and would certainly welcome some means of identifying the cyclists who break the rules. Cycling organisations, certainly in London, also need to take a good hard look at how they play a more responsible role in making sure all cyclists treat other path users with respect and actually obey the regulations.

I do think cyclists should have insurance if they're on the road. I don't think it's a bad idea registering cyclists but not sure how practical it is. My experience is that there are good and bad of both cyclists and drivers. But I've seen a lot more cyclists crash in to people than I have cars.

the sight of a 6 year old wobbling along the pavement next to a parent is quite normal

also never understood why anyone puts a wobbly 6 year old on a bike next to a road. especially if they have a garden or there is a park nearby. I'd be so afraid of them falling in front of a car and me reacting too slowly for whatever reason. Plus falling on to concreate is way more painful than falling on to grass!

Oh look, another anti-cyclist thread when the issue is inconsiderate people, whether they are car drivers, cyclists or pedestrians. And many people are all three - most adult cyclists also drive cars and/or walk places.

Road tax was abolished before WW2, but if you are talking about extending Vehicle Excise Duty to bicycles, that goes against every green principle of encouraging non-polluting forms of transport.

@WellLarDeDar

I do think cyclists should have insurance if they're on the road. I don't think it's a bad idea registering cyclists but not sure how practical it is. My experience is that there are good and bad of both cyclists and drivers. But I've seen a lot more cyclists crash in to people than I have cars.

the sight of a 6 year old wobbling along the pavement next to a parent is quite normal

also never understood why anyone puts a wobbly 6 year old on a bike next to a road. especially if they have a garden or there is a park nearby. I'd be so afraid of them falling in front of a car and me reacting too slowly for whatever reason. Plus falling on to concreate is way more painful than falling on to grass!

Because they might be cycling to school, or to the shop or anywhere that isn't just for leisure? As a driver it is your responsibility to be aware of hazards and drive accordingly.

@FaceyRomford

I don't think there are enough laughing emojis to react to the idea that you could weld a registration plate to every bike in the entire country... How many bikes do you think there are? Just who is going to do all this welding? How long would that even take? You do know not all bikes are of the same design and not all made of metal right? Even the metal ones you can't just 'weld' stuff on. Absolute wibble.

Oh, and as has been pointed out umpteen times, road tax doesn't pay for the roads, Council tax does. And anyway, as an emissions based tax cyclists would be in the same bracket as electric cars and many hybrids, which is £0 a year.

As a driver it is your responsibility to be aware of hazards and drive accordingly. well state the obvious why dont you. but it doesnt negate the fact that roads are dangerous places for little ones to wobble along learning to ride. unfortunately not everyone drives sensibly.

@FaceyRomford

How many bikes will need a plate welded on?
(where on the bike are you going to weld this?)

How much will it cost?

What are you going to do about the bikes with no plate?

How much will you "road tax" for bikes be?

A lot of cyclists do have insurance - either via their home insurance or via membership of Cycling UK or British Cycling.

As for the old "road tax" chestnut, I don't even pay VED on my car, as hybrids registered before April 2017 are exempt from the charge,

They go way below the speed limit, cycle side-by-side chatting, and cars are forced to go right onto the other side of the road to pass them

Erm - I hate to break this to you but you are supposed to go right on the other side of the road to pass them!

@looptheloopinahulahoop

They go way below the speed limit, cycle side-by-side chatting, and cars are forced to go right onto the other side of the road to pass them

Erm - I hate to break this to you but you are supposed to go right on the other side of the road to pass them!

Yep, it's amazing how many people get so cross about cyclists not abiding by the highway code but then totally forget all the rules they are supposed to follow as car drivers.

BTW I also support the idea of cyclists paying road tax

Nobody else pays road tax.

Why only cyclists, who actually have minimal impact on roads?

I do think cyclists should have insurance if they're on the road.

You can sue someone for damages whether or not they have insurance.

The reason cyclists don't have to have mandatory insurance is that for them, the risk of causing bank-rupting levels of damage is negligible. But you can still sue cyclists for damages just like you can anyone else.

The reason drivers have to have insurance is because there is a material risk that a driver can cause far more damage than they could pay for, so without insurance too many would go bankrupt leaving the injured party without recompense.

From that, a whole industry has grown up to deal with car insurance claims without having to go to court.

It's possible to buy third party cycle insurance very cheaply. You may even be covered by your home insurance. It's provided as a perk with membership of some of the larger cycling groups, so you get membership and insurance for less than £100 annually. It's very cheap because cyclists are not causing the level of damage that cars and drivers are.

Now take a step back and think about what means in terms of just how much damage cars are causing that an entire industry exists just to deal with it.

But yeah, it's uninsured cyclists that are the problem.

@OooPourUsACupLove thanks for that very informative piece. I didn't say uninsured cyclists were the problem...

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Cyclists and pedestrians are the victims in road accidents, they rarely cause them

It’s pedestrians who are the victims in RTAs and who rarely cause them.

The stats show pedestrians have a lower injury rate than cycles, and are a contributing factor in a huge number of collisions. 2007 -2016 stats show an average of 3 pedestrian fatalities and 82 injuries a year which is 0.6% of pedestrian fatalities compared to 99.4% of pedestrian fatalities involving a motor vehicle. From 2007-2016 no pedestrians were killed by red light jumping cyclists, 5 a year killed by cars jumping red lights . In 2016, 43 pedestrians died on pavements. All of them were motors mounting the pavement, none were cyclists.

In 2018 94 cyclists were killed and 3,690 seriously injured. Even factoring in rates per billion vehicle miles, cyclists are much safer for pedestrians than cars and more likely to be injured than to injure. They are vulnerable road users and more at risk from cars than pedestrians are from bikes.

Those stats are from cycling UK (using police statistics and police assessed contributory factors. You can see the table on gov.uk RAS 50 table) and also from RoSPA the safety and risk assessment organisation who have rejected the registration of cyclists on the basis that the stats don't back up that lots of pedestrians are injured by cyclists.

I do however think there is an arguement for having an urban cycling module as a component of a driving test.

Drivers who have never cycled in urban areas have a blindspot. Literally and metaphorically.

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

Ok for those who are getting caught up by my mistake of 'road tax', ill rephrase. I think cyclists should pay SOME KIND OF TAX BASED ON ROAD USAGE which recognises their road use and the admin surrounding registering number plates etc. Hope that helps and we can now move the discussion forward.

Why, when motorists don't pay tax based on road usage? VED is based on emissions - cyclists would not pay. Roads are paid for out of general taxation.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

I was intimidated by a cyclist on a pavement recently. He rode aggressively, and was rude.

How can I report him if there's no reg plate to help identify him? With a vehicle I can. Why should cyclists have an easy ride, as it were?

I was intimidated by a pedestrian on a pavement recently. He bumped into me and was rude, sexist and intimidating.

How can I report him if he has no reg plate to identify him? With a vehicle I can. Why should pedestrians be allowed to have an easy run, as it were?

Following the logic all pedestrians should have mandatory registration and wear a number plate , perhaps as a badge or hung around their necks if they are to be allowed out on to the roads or pavements. That way when they cause an accident they can be reported and held responsible.

In the before-times I was one of the rare functional cyclists. Often had little ones in tow on a child-seat or trailer, always stopped at lights, too scared to weave through traffic or over-take much, routes carefully planned to be as safe as possible, path used if things felt too unsafe (and if any pedestrians around, I'd just get off and push the bike rather than trouble them). I did it entirely because of logistics - in my situation it was quicker than public transport or a car.

Most car users are lovely. London bus drivers were the best. Lots of drivers didn't give you a thought (e.g. pulling out in front of you when going from a minor to a major road), but that felt okay, because I could at least assume that a driver hasn't seen me and act defensively. Some drivers were just dangerous (e.g. over-taking in such a way that forces you to slow down to avoid having your front-wheel clipped). The worst drivers were just simply angry with you. One time I was cycling up a residential side-road. There were parked cars to my left and I was cycling next to them, so if there was no on-coming traffic it would've been easy to overtake me. A guy behind me was beeping and yelling incoherently. He was soon able to overtake me and off he went. Thing is, it turned out he lived on the street, and after a bit I saw him parking up. So I stopped and asked him what he was upset about. Turned out he thought I should've been nipping between the parked cars to my left whenever possible so that he could pass me more easily, and that was what the Highway Code said I should do. I was about 6 months pregnant at the time, and had a big obvious baby bump.

I think there should be a cycling component to learning how to drive. Perhaps you are required to do say 4 hours on cycle training, where most of that is practical (if you're able, otherwise all theory). That way drivers would understand cyclists' behaviour a bit better, and be more considerate. It would also help them feel more comfortable sometimes choosing cycling as an option themselves. It should also reduce the wanker MAMIL factor too, as likely lots of them are also car drivers. (I've encountered plenty of horrible cyclists too - they really do exist - it's not a car driver fabrication, and it's so frustrating that they give us all a bad name.)

Erm - I hate to break this to you but you are supposed to go right on the other side of the road to pass them!

It's astounding how many car drivers seem to get annoyed at the idea of having to overtake another road user safely and in line with the Highway Code.

What but we have to go onto the other side of the road!!!! means is 'I'd rather unsafely squeeze past a cyclist because the idea of doing a safe overtake is a bit of an inconvenience to me'.

How can I report him if he has no reg plate to identify him? With a vehicle I can. Why should pedestrians be allowed to have an easy run

I’m surprised wit cannot appreciate the difference between a pedestrian and a cyclist who is in charge of a vehicle.

If you did, then you would be able to understand my point.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

How can I report him if he has no reg plate to identify him? With a vehicle I can. Why should pedestrians be allowed to have an easy run

I’m surprised wit cannot appreciate the difference between a pedestrian and a cyclist who is in charge of a vehicle.

If you did, then you would be able to understand my point.

A car is a lethal weapon. A bike is not near in the same league.

Cambridge University used to require students to display a number on their bike (painted onto the rear mudguard). I don't know how much use was made of it, other than making it easier to return stray bikes to their owners.

A bike can cause considerable injuries, sometimes even fatal.

The more I think about the idea of licencing cyclists, the more I like it. Cyclists apply for a licence and, when / if they get one, they are required to weld licences to their bikes and to carry their licences and insurance information on them when cycling.