that the idea of registration for cyclists is silly, unworkable and unenforceable

[KihoBebiluPute]

This idea was featured on Radio 4 on monday morning and is also in the telegraph - Nick Freeman (the motorists loophole lawyer) is trying to drum up support for a scheme to force cyclists to register and display a number plate type thing.

I get that there are plenty of selfish and sometimes dangerous cyclists out there, but the numbers of deaths and injuries caused by dangerous cycling is a minuscule fraction of the numbers caused by careless driving and the whole idea seems totally unrealistic to me.

(1) For number plates to work as a reasonably reliable registration method for cars, the manufacture of number plates has to be quite tightly controlled - criminals do clone plates but it's not easy for an ordinary member of the public to get a plate without proof of ownership, and plates are fixed to the correct car and generally stay put. Any kind of wearable registration plate for cyclists would necessarily be something portable and would therefore be so easy to lose or nick that it would be functionally useless as a means of identification because there couldn't be any means to verifiably ensure that each plate was only ever carried by the correctly registered individual associated with that number plate.

(2) cyclists don't come into the world as fully formed MAMILs - and the sight of a 6 year old wobbling along the pavement next to a parent is quite normal. There's no sharp divide between a kid just learning and a fully independent cyclist, no test to pass or license to grant. There's just a gradual build up of skills and road-sense and a gradual reduction in parental supervision. so there's no rational way to define when someone should start being registered (presumably no one thinks it should apply to kids who are just learning)

(3) its frankly stupid to put up any kind of additional barrier to make it more complicated to make a trip by bike rather than getting in the car. It's currently just about a reasonable balance for me for a lot of journeys - a tiny bit of extra hassle to find my helmet and D-lock, but the benefit of not having to find or pay for parking balances that enough that some fraction of the car-miles I might otherwise make, generating traffic congestion and pollution, gets turned into the green alternative of cycling. Upset this balance by making it a legal requirement to wear and carry this proposed registration plate and the net effect will be to drive up car traffic at a time when we should be doing everything we can to achieve the opposite.

I to think they should have to have insurance. I'm not sure a licence plate would work though. Would be really hard to police that. I mean arseholes on off road motor bikes and quads are raging round on a regular basis here, damaging property and driving dangerously. I doubt the police have time for cyclists, when the majority are decent, when they don't have time to sort the dickheads out.

Do not to

Secondly because when someone says we need to focus on cyclists before the greater danger posed by motor vehicles is reduced, I suspect their motivation is less about actual road safety and more just they don't like having cyclists on the road full stop.

Well, why don’t you stop and think for moment why people don’t like them?

If there’s such a big dislike then surely there is a reason for it?
No just wakes up and thinks, oh o know, I’m going to start hating cyclist from now on.

It makes no sense to focus on cyclists when motorised vehicles are doing so much more damage. It's like checking you've switched the TV off when the house is on fire

No one is suggesting that we solely focus on cyclists. Cars are already registered. You have to be insured to drive a vehicle, take a test, make sure your car is MOT'd and so on... And if there are further ways to make driving safer then I'm all for it, including better cycle routes.

That doesn't mean that cyclists shouldn't be identifiable and accountable when they are the ones causing injury or damage though.

@Shade17

Cyclists statistically are not a significant danger on the roads. Drivers are.

I’m not so sure about that. When you look into contributory factors under the headings of injudicious action, driver/rider error or reaction and behaviour or inexperience and then look at the total miles traveled, cyclists are causing more than 5 times as many accidents as car drivers. 1404 accidents per billion vehicle miles for cyclists vs 260 for car drivers. Please feel free to check my maths and correct me but that’s certainly how it appears.

You are missing two things:

1. the fact that a person in a car can travel a lot more miles than a person on a bike and therefore it's more appropriate to look at the risk per person or per hour of travel than per mile

1. Sheer number of drivers vs bicycles means the vast majority of KSIs are due to drivers so it makes sense that improving the accident rate from drivers will result in a bigger reduction of KSI than anything that focuses on cyclists up to and including taking bikes off the road altogether.

I think cyclists should have to register to use the road and be issued with a high vi's vest (a bit like those netball ones so suitable in winter and summer over clothes) with an identifiable number on. They have to wear it everytime they cycle but it doesn't matter which bike etc. Wouldn't cost a lot and will hopefully prevent the idiots who bash on through red lights causing near misses and accidents.

A bike as a form of transport is great.

I live near the Peak District. What gets me is the cycling for leisure clubs riding in groups of 20 up narrow hilly roads and causing huge huge tailbacks of traffic. Why do they have priority? The whole thing has become unmanageable, and really needs some sort of action to make these roads useable for everyone. At the moment the cycling clubs dominate.

I don't understand why, on a thread about cyclists, saying that you think they should be held accountable and be identifiable means that you think cars shouldn't be or that you don't care about the safety of driving.

Its not one or the other. I can think that bikes should be registered whilst also thinking there should be ways of making driving safer too.

This thread is about cyclists not cars. If you want people's opinions on how they think driving should be made safer then perhaps start a thread about that.

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

Ok for those who are getting caught up by my mistake of 'road tax', ill rephrase. I think cyclists should pay SOME KIND OF TAX BASED ON ROAD USAGE which recognises their road use and the admin surrounding registering number plates etc. Hope that helps and we can now move the discussion forward.

Around here the Police can't (or won't) stop people driving cars with illegible or missing number plates, dangerously illegal lights and illegal exhausts.

I had to write to my MP to get the Police to take action against a kid up the road who (still) regularly drives down this end of the road to smoke dope and also had no MOT or Tax. Several of us reported him but the Police did nothing until I involved the MP.

How do you think this cycle plates thing could be enforced?

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Secondly because when someone says we need to focus on cyclists before the greater danger posed by motor vehicles is reduced, I suspect their motivation is less about actual road safety and more just they don't like having cyclists on the road full stop.

Well, why don’t you stop and think for moment why people don’t like them?

If there’s such a big dislike then surely there is a reason for it?
No just wakes up and thinks, oh o know, I’m going to start hating cyclist from now on.

Why does anyone have irrational hatred of anyone? Because they don't understand, see the advantages but not the disadvantages and think someone is "getting away" with something they are not, and because their social echo chamber reinforces it.

What it can't be is that cyclists are actually killing and maiming people in huge numbers be because they simply are not.

To turn the question round, why are people so acceptable and forgiving of a mode of transport that kills or seriously injures tens of thousands of people in the UK every year?

The government have consistently said it isn't going to happen as it would be of no real benefit.

Would cost vast amounts to try and implement, and would be virtually impossible to enforce. It's only effect would be to reduce numbers of people cycling, thereby making people less fit, making drivers more complacent and less aware of cyclists. Those who ride like dicks would just ignore things and continue to do so anyway knowing they'd not get caught anyway, so it would just force more people into cars, cost vast sums, and have no real benefit on safety. Totally pointless.

There are people unfortunately injured by others in all sorts of ways. Sometimes those people might be on a bike, often they're not. We could reduce injuries and reduce antisocial behaviour if we all went round at all times wearing helmets with ID numbers on them, but clearly that is a nonsense, as is this idea.

there’s also a severe lack of understanding, such as hate for cyclists who cycle 2-3 abreast without realising this is encouraged as it means vehicles spend less time on other side of road overtaking

Have you actually read the highway code rule 66

never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends

you are not allowed to ride 3 abreast and shouldnt ride 2 abreast if its on a narrow road

Why does anyone have irrational hatred of anyone? Because they don't understand, see the advantages but not the disadvantages and think someone is "getting away" with something they are not, and because their social echo chamber reinforces it.

And here lies your problem, the fact that you don’t want or you can’t recognise that pedestrians have genuine reason to fear some cyclists and that somecyclists are, quite frankly, twats.

Its not one or the other.

Unless you've found the magic money tree, putting resources into a scheme that has already been proven not to justify the costs is going to divert resources from somewhere else for no gain other than reassuring motorists that cyclists are not "getting away" with something. So yes, it does matter where money gets spent and why.

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

Ok for those who are getting caught up by my mistake of 'road tax', ill rephrase. I think cyclists should pay SOME KIND OF TAX BASED ON ROAD USAGE which recognises their road use and the admin surrounding registering number plates etc. Hope that helps and we can now move the discussion forward.

I'll happily pay using the exact same model currently used now. VED rate is set by CO2 emissions. This would put bikes in the same category as electric and many hybrid cars, which pay £0 in 'road tax'. Not that this is ring-fenced in any way to pay for roads, it just goes into the main tax pot along with everything else. Only motorways and big A roads get central government funding really anyway. All the rest of the roads that are actually used by cyclists or any other road user are paid for and maintained out of Council Tax.

My point was what people think should happen is not one or the other.

As PP mentioned, the government have already said it won't happen. It doesn't mean I don't think it should. In an ideal world it definitely should happen and saying that doesn't mean I don't care about the safety of driving.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Why does anyone have irrational hatred of anyone? Because they don't understand, see the advantages but not the disadvantages and think someone is "getting away" with something they are not, and because their social echo chamber reinforces it.

And here lies your problem, the fact that you don’t want or you can’t recognise that pedestrians have genuine reason to fear some cyclists and that somecyclists are, quite frankly, twats.

Some cyclists are twats. So are some pedestrians, scooterists and drivers. Yet it's somehow justified to hate all cyclists? No.

Of the three, drivers do the most damage. Cyclists and pedestrians are more in danger than dangerous.

Cyclists should not be on pavements or jumping lights. The attitude that says cyclists are real road users and not welcome on roads is the same attitude that makes some cyclists feel they don't have to act like real road users. Tackle that at root and you solve both problems.

Road safety proposals from someone who is only thinking in terms of cyclist behaviour are just vindictive knee jerk responses and doomed to fail.

@TwoTimingPotatoSalad

My point was what people think should happen is not one or the other.

As PP mentioned, the government have already said it won't happen. It doesn't mean I don't think it should. In an ideal world it definitely should happen and saying that doesn't mean I don't care about the safety of driving.

A lot of people would want to reintroduce a death penalty if you carried out a referendum. Doesn't mean it's such a good idea though.

^Some cyclists are twats. So are some pedestrians, scooterists and drivers. Yet it's somehow justified to hate all cyclists? No.*

Pedestrians are the most vulnerable and generally don’t hurt other road users, drivers are registered and regulated, it’s cyclists who are left.

Why are you persisting with the accusations of hate and some irrational persecution?

Don’t cycle like a twat and no one will mind you.

You are missing two things:

1. the fact that a person in a car can travel a lot more miles than a person on a bike and therefore it's more appropriate to look at the risk per person or per hour of travel than per mile

2. Sheer number of drivers vs bicycles means the vast majority of KSIs are due to drivers so it makes sense that improving the accident rate from drivers will result in a bigger reduction of KSI than anything that focuses on cyclists up to and including taking bikes off the road altogether.

Yes, both your points make sense. Normally you see accident stats based on distance travelled though so that seemed sensible. Much more difficult to get the data on hours travelled I think.

I’m not anti cyclist at all, just thought it would be interesting to look at some stats.

As for electric scooters though, I agree with a PP that they’re a bloody menace. They definitely should be registered.

@murbblurb

Cycling should dominate. Cars need to be inconvenient and slowed down, you may vaguely have noticed a bit of a climate issue.

Yes, I drive and I don't cycle. And any sillybitch whining about Lycra can fuck right off to the fat camp where she belongs.

Well that sounds reasonable

A tax of £0 wont pay for any proposed changes, so they current system wouldnt work.

No system is perfect, but perhaps the plates could be recognised by ANPR, although this would take some extra work. I dont think this would be a catchall solution, but itd catch some people I think.

Ive been caight by ANPR before, and its a good deterrant.

With the massive increase in cycling, first after the 2012 Olympics, and again during lockdown, the behaviour of many “MAMIL” cyclists and clubs has led to such a backlash against the majority of Highway Code abiding cyclists, that it feels more dangerous now to ride on the road, as we are tarred with the same brush as those who jump pedestrian crossings and red traffic lights, or ride the wrong way down one-way streets.
I don’t particularly like the idea, but I think the way it’s going, cycle helmets will soon become compulsory, and with the success of ANPR, it won’t be too long until these will have to be chipped so they can be “read” like a number plate, and a site set up to report theft Etc.
This might also pave the way for the electric scooters to become more acceptable, as at the moment they are not road, pavement or cycle path legal, unless hired...

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

^Some cyclists are twats. So are some pedestrians, scooterists and drivers. Yet it's somehow justified to hate all cyclists? No.*

Pedestrians are the most vulnerable and generally don’t hurt other road users, drivers are registered and regulated, it’s cyclists who are left.

Why are you persisting with the accusations of hate and some irrational persecution?

Don’t cycle like a twat and no one will mind you.

No one will mind me? Well gosh, that's jolly nice of them.

But they woukd be very happy to insist on imposing an uworkable registration scheme on me ahead of addressing road infrastructure and dangerous driving.

I am so totally sick of the mote in the eye that is cyclists apparently being a bigger problem than the beam in the eye that is drivers.

Fact is, most people are just so immersed from birth in the idea that cars are dangerous they don't notice it any more. Milk goes sour, there's no cure for the common cold and motor vehicles kill or maim 24,000 people a year in the UK. Meh, what can you do?

CYCLISTS JUMP RED LIGHTS???? THOSE EVIL BASTARDS! SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!