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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Leaving London - is there a promised land?

462 replies

ilkleymoorbartat · 09/06/2021 21:49

With the mass exodus from London at the moment, aibu to ask whether there is some promised land that people go when they have kids (whatever the location).

Ie, are those of us in London missing out on a life that is lovely and idyllic which if you're in the London bubble it's impossible to imagine?

Do we have Stockholm syndrome basically?!

OP posts:
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awaketoosoon · 12/06/2021 09:20

I do agree with @Tealightsandd points that everyone is quick to blame Londoners for pushing out locals when many probably aren't Londoners (in the same way if I moved to Manchester would I be Mancunian). No one seems concerned about local londoners being priced out or forced out of social housing outside of London.

awaketoosoon · 12/06/2021 09:23

Whilst it will have increased in value, not enough for us to get even something the same in our area, let alone bigger

That's the same for everyone though. Ever increasing prices are not actually a good thing for the majority as it makes moving up harder but a lot don't understand that.

Puffykins · 12/06/2021 09:28

@awaketoosoon I hope that I'm going to find the same in Hastings. We're going to be within ten minutes walk of the sea/ the station (with trains going into Charing Cross, I.e. perfect for my work and the theatre) / Hastings Contemporary/ the (two) cinemas etc.

Tigerstotty · 12/06/2021 09:28

I have never lived in London and never wanted to. Have visited many times for theatre, shopping, sightseeing, visiting relatives etc.. but do not like the fast pace, fear of crime, people ignoring you/Not talking etc.. I live in Leicestershire. Large vibrant village/small town, good schools excellent neighbours and community, countryside all around, on main train line to Leicester - 10 minutes (apparently the most culturally diverse city in the UK) or Nottingham 20 minutes, Can get EVERYTHING you want or need including ANY type of food! 1 hour to London on train in a 5 bedroom detached house, large garden backs onto countryside, paid £340,000 2.5 years ago, (1DD who went to private school and is now off to uni. Lots of Londoners moving here for quality of life/value for money. My cousin on the other hand (same age) lives in North London (Grange Park) close to train station (40 ish minutes into London) and has lived in and around North London all her life and would not live in any other city in the world! Its swings and roundabouts really. It's what's important to you that counts. Do what makes you happy but if you can get everything here that you can get there, property 25% of the price, very low crime rate in comparison, 1 hour train journey into St Pancreas - it seems a no brainer to me 🤨

awaketoosoon · 12/06/2021 09:30

@Puffykins I would move to the coast tmw but leaving both families is too difficult at the moment. Maybe one day!

LateAtTate · 12/06/2021 09:36

@awaketoosoon ironically I felt best integrated in a very ‘white’ place as everyone was so welcoming 😂

awaketoosoon · 12/06/2021 09:40

I'm sure you did but not everyone has the same experiences.

Hamandcheeselife · 12/06/2021 10:12

Moving soon for more space, to get away from horrid neighbours, schools and fresh air.

I will miss the diversity of London, the chaos and having the world on my doorstep but it feel like it's time.

I'm terrified of hating it, having to go on a bus to the supermarket and the amount racism I've come across already 🤦🏼‍♀️

Bythemillpond · 12/06/2021 11:19

I live in Zone 6. I have horses going passed my house, big garden large driveway, with fields, cows, oxen and sheep around us.
I have to drive everywhere because there are no shops.
Zero crime rate but then can be sitting down for lunch, just off Oxford street within 45 minutes.

This is as far out as I want to go.
Selling our house and family think we could get better than we have further out.
I think there is going to be big disappointment somewhere as I don’t want to live further out and am looking at smaller houses further in.

Bythemillpond · 12/06/2021 11:25

Ddot

If you can afford go for harrogate

Friends looked at Harrogate (near one of the couples home towns)
They decided what they could get in London was cheaper when they looked at house prices and took into account having to reduce their salaries.

Chipsahoy · 12/06/2021 11:28

@ Willyoujustbequiet yes and we are moving there as soon as we can. Sold house, hoping to complete in august. So excited!

awaketoosoon · 12/06/2021 12:25

I have to drive everywhere because there are no shops.

I've never lived more than 5 mins walk from a shop where I could get milk etc so that's more important to me then a huge garden but everyone has there own preferences. That's why I would prefer moving further out as opposed to some parts of z5/6.

awaketoosoon · 12/06/2021 12:34

Also as a Londoner I don't think my childhood was incredibly different from kids in other towns. At 15, yes I did some underage clubbing but it was very sensible! Most weekends were spent shopping, cinema, going to pub &!each other houses. Even going out in the evening we still tended to stay local & then have sleep overs as we couldn't afford weekly taxis or didn't always have the night bus option. We definitely didn't spend every weekend popping into Z1 for brunch or a gallery or clubbing. I think that's only the reality of the Made in Chelsea brigade & they are all over 20 Im sure.

Xenia · 12/06/2021 13:18

We are zone 5 and there are tons of shops so it must depend on the area you are in. However people definitely need to drive to get to them although you can get to loads from my house in a fairly short walk for a corner shop.I would always drive to Tesco, tesco express, waitrose, lidl, sainsbury's, co-op and others which are within about 5 mins drive of my house out here.

We also have NHS doctors and dentists whereas my son who has moved out to Oxfordshire in a year has still not found an NHS dentist.

pollymere · 12/06/2021 13:19

The Chilterns. 😂 We moved out of London in 2002 for the scenery and Outstanding Schools rated in the top twenty for the Country. We also liked the Grammar School system then. It is also on the tube so you pay tube prices to get into London fairly quickly. There is apparently a new exodus of people wanting houses here that is pushing prices to silly almost London levels. I'm tempted to move somewhere cheaper and live mortgage free!

PrincessAnnaOfArundale · 12/06/2021 13:35

Yeah... Sydney for us was the promised land 😂 but actually Edinburgh or anywhere up in the Lake District are lovely. Basically just head north and see what’s there because it depends entirely on your situation, jobs, family, finances etc as to where you can really make it work. For us work and lifestyle was far better over here in Sydney but appreciate it’s not for everyone! We had no family, just us and our boys so nothing really to lose.

Bythemillpond · 12/06/2021 15:32

awaketoosoon
I think where you go to school points to where you go out.

Dd went to school in Central London. Her friends come from all over London so meeting in Central London was where she went out with her friends. They did shopping on Oxford Street or Westfields, cinema was in Leicester Square. They rarely went to each other’s houses unless for an occasional party as they could be travelling 40+ miles.

Clubbing is definitely central London although she said a lot of the clubbers are a lot older than 20s or 30s

Tealightsandd · 12/06/2021 16:45

That's the same for everyone though. Ever increasing prices are not actually a good thing for the majority as it makes moving up harder but a lot don't understand that.

I think most do understand. Unfortunately Rishi Sunak doesn't. Hence his ill thought out lose the taxpayer millions to inflate the bubble stamp duty holiday. I'd say also a problem were hare brained schemes like the taxpayer funded Help to Buy give money to developers to build expensive but shoddily constructed new builds But that's an insult to hares.

awaketoosoon · 12/06/2021 17:07

I'm not sure. I've had debates on here where people have absolutely refuted that increasing prices are a good thing when moving up.

awaketoosoon · 12/06/2021 17:08

sorry aren't!

awaketoosoon · 12/06/2021 17:09

@Bythemillpond how does she get home from clubbing.

I went to school in z2 so that's where we tended to go.

Tealightsandd · 12/06/2021 17:14

I suppose not everyone but looking around online, not just MN, and I think more and more people are starting to see through the silly schemes - and realise how an ever increasing bubble is not such a good thing afterall. Perhaps not quite enough people yet? Soon though, I think.

Tealightsandd · 12/06/2021 17:19

People who grew up in zones 5 and 6 still went clubbing in central London. Back in the 80s and 90s they didn't mind night buses even although it was a long journey. Others particularly in later years shared cabs. People would often stay over each others homes so they could travel back together. Also some clubs were all nighters so people just got the tube home early in the morning.

Pinetreesfall · 12/06/2021 17:47

Oh yes - Devon! Moved here almost on a whim. Originally from basically west London and it was the best thing we ever did.
No more 3 hour commute.
Walk to the beach in 10 mins.
Everyone is friendly.
Life is at a much slower pace.
If we ever get bored of the coast we have Dartmoor 30 mins away.
Cornwall no longer takes 7 hours to get to Grin

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 12/06/2021 18:01

The London, south east England, further British popular sought after spots including many as mentioned up thread ie Cotswolds, Chilterns, Poole, Dorset Jurassic coast, Cornwall, Edinburgh, etc can be explained in terms of elementary economics as follows.

UK government policies in recent decades of all political viewpoints (but I consider Blair a classic hybrid red Conservative) always continue to ensure via housing policies, town and country planning and supply economics such as all the recent SDLT and first time buyer policies to target one major overriding objective. That unofficial objective is to ensure market stability but actually it is more deigned to favour perpetual housing (and land) asset value/pricing appreciation. All the government policies essentially (in my humble opinion as not an expert in real estate development economics) pander to and incentivise the all powerful (private of course as limited social or complementary paid for by others council housing) big house builders to supply new housing in a market where there forever a "deliberate" unbalanced equilibrium in housing stock supply and increasing demand. In London and these above sought after spots an unbalanced supply and demand market dynamic is just the market capitalists way we live in. Essentially as long as the house prices continue to rise above inflation (although inflation has been super low in recent times) and out perform other investment asset classes apart from specific limited supply commodities such as rare earths etc - "everyone" is happy. Of course what that means is renters (not by choice) lose out as they are forever priced out as the gap between local incomes and local house prices increase the unaffordability scale. Renting market heats up again due to limited supply and this high demand only means the "poor" renters are trapped outside of the property ladder and instead pay the mortgages of their landlords. Many of these landlords themselves being incidental originally having purchased property historically at legacy pricing levels and now enriched by asset appreciation and a decent additional income stream to perpetuate further buy to let market. UK mortgage debt market itself is weighted more towards buy to let as there is a more guarantee income stream to borrow more than for a regular owner occupier mortgage loan.

So limited house building but increasing demand (to buy and rent) with smaller household dynamics and the rise of the divorced or single parent demographic and net national and international immigration (to London and other economically prosperous spots) helps to increase demand and so increase the property market price further.

In addition to limited supply as big house building players and investors (UK pension funds and international investment vehicles/sovereign wealth funds and pension funds etc) play the market to their advantage. It's big business not charity as they need a safe and "guarantee" return on investment as a part of a diversified investment portfolio.

One must simply understand and appreciate the housing market food chain! In core central London leading the price per square foot/meter is UK aground zero market apex. I am of course referring to off market by invitation localities where a small elite market is prequalified to bid not the man/woman on the street unless big lottery winner perhaps. Naturally being a global investment store of value and dare I suggest (as a City professional) as it is generally agreed - we facilitate this legally with complex inventive taxation and investment vehicle structure strategies to optimise and pay the "legally correct taxation." This is a subtle difference from moral financial obligations from those ironically most able to pay and to pay for the best professional advice. So all the up thread posters who are displeased and displaced from being priced out of localities they wish to buy (or rent) will hopefully understand that London is a global safe investment residential and commercial property market. Richer Londoner are priced out by the global high net worth be it Chinese, Russian or Gulf States financial firepower. The priced out central Londoners then move further out to commuter territory eg Surrey and Hertfordshire etc. This is in turn trickle down to surrounding regions to sought after leafy market towns with the right mix of amenities and transportation links. The same in other sought after local hotspots eg Cotswolds, Cheshire professional footballer territory, Cornwall coastal villages, etc etc. It's just basic property market economics and the common factor is ensuring the land and property price remains high and appreciates. Look what happened with the USA residential market collapse in recent times as that essentially initiated the previous global economic recession. If the price sky rockets eg central London over recent decades then many owners are incentivised to either expand by building loft conversions or additional super basement super subterranean luxury spacious living or selling up with a big fat profit and buy a much larger property in a nice spot further out by pricing out the original locals. The return on this building investment is a no brainier when the return is a multiple of costs. That is why London is such a sought after safe international market. We have political stability compared to China, Hong Kong, Russia, Middle East etc and strong property protection laws as no government is suddenly going to be unstable by political coup or instantly change laws to compulsory purchase or as in many poorer undeveloped countries literally move the earth to take away your property and land without legal recourse to favour the corrupt elites. Hope this helps but then I am positive the mums of MumsNet know this stuff already!