Another teenager dead right now - how do we get a grip on gangs?

[NorthNineteen]

Name changed. A teenager was killed (shooting) close to where I live. It happened about an hour ago, there are loads of police, an air ambulance came. It's so awful, I don't know many details but what can be done to protect children? Clearly the current system is broken. It's so heartbreaking to think someone has lost their child today.

@TruelyStruttingHotpants

I think we do have to address some difficult questions. However people are so worried about being called racist or whatever that this doesn't happen.

Having worked in London secondary schools I agree black on black gang violence is very much more likely. Not necessarily the case outside of London I can imagine.

We seriously need to be looking at the causes of this and starting from a young age. Schools see it but whilst trying to help often get told they are singling out a group etc. Therefore they end up with their hands tied. Open honest dialogue is needed to help these kids not adults shouting nonsense.

I also think people are kidding themselves about drug legalisation. Gangs that are in it to make money with just find other ways to make big money. Girls are already taken into gangs and then pimped out for example.

One thing that does need to happen though is middle class and wealthy people need to stop thinking their recreational drug use isn't harming anyone. They are indirectly very much hurting vulnerable young people. They need to be honest with themselves.

Absolutely, the drugs these children are dealing in aren't, on the whole, being used by down and out druggies in doorways. I also agree they'd move onto something else, but removing their market might at least disrupt things for a while.

@Naunet

I think the more uncomfortable truth is it's often black on black. Poverty and family breakdown is often behind it

So black girls are murdering at the same rate as black boys? Nope. It’s just part of the wider scale of male violence in my opinion.

And how do you stop it?

@TheoMeo

I think sport, sport, sport. If there was football training clubs everywhere, competition at weekends between them, inclusive so different level teams played those on the same level. Maybe some clubs could encourage this on a much bigger scale than at present. Encourages team work, exercise improves mood, no one thinks teh guy with the biggest knife is kingpin, it's the guy who scored/saved the vital goal.

There is a barrier to entry even for football. The sad fact is that the playing fields have been sold off by councils who are strapped for cash: the local 11-a-side pitch could be miles away and then there's travelling to matches at other clubs when usually a car is needed. It's actually not that accessible to the poor kid with limited parental help or with no car.

Perhaps we could go the way of New York and set up basketball courts everywhere which need much less space?

However all these things needs community support and volunteers. I volunteer in a number of activities and it can be thankless and sometimes more grief than it's worth so I know why others don't bother.
It's a very good suggestion @TheoMeo but can we get the volunteers?

@JaniieJones

'Grime, drill, rap music, watch any of their videos, read the lyrics where they actually glamourise drugs, designer clothes and knives. Young kids look to these people as role models.'

This!

Grime and rap artists need to take a bit of responsibility for the influence of their misogynistic, violent crap.

A lot of social ills can be traced back to the rise of rap music. Drill just being a violently nihilistic derivative.

I did it because my mam chose an abusive man over me, so to have respect from others was a feeling like no other. When you walk down the street and people cross to the other side because they know who you are - that's why. Also of course the obvious when you grow up in a shitty estate on the breadline surrounded by this you become desensitised to it. Also what someone mentioned upthread when you're let down by the state so many times I had no faith in them, the idea that I would be able to grow up go to uni then have a job and have a family was like🤯🤯🤯to me, something I'd never be able to achieve. 'Our kind' didn't do that. I felt like teachers, doctors, social workers etc would never be able to understand me because why would they? They couldn't relate at all they were well spoken with nice accents from nice backgrounds how could they imagine how I feel (I know this is wrong I don't think like this anymore but this was my thought process at the time, hope it doesn't offend anyone). Easy access to fun stuff like boys, drugs, alcohol. By the time I was 14 I had already had a gun to my head multiple times, just becomes part of life. And yes drill music I saw lots of people from nice backgrounds become part of that life because naively it looked appealing to them, and by the time you realise it's too late. So what do we do to solve this problem I've no idea, apart from do more lessons, talks in school about how BAD it is. Cos if you live by the sword you die by the sword. A lot of boys about that have mental health issues as well. County lines my best mate did that and her house was booted multiple times, raped and jumped multiple times it's really horrific. And yeah I would agree certain ethnic groups tend to stick together in their own gang like Albanians and Somalis were separate but it is not exclusive of course, there is people from all races and ethnicities involved just depends on your area. Most people had a shitty home life or their parents were involved in it too. Sorry I worded all that really awkwardly and random, it's difficult to express my thoughts properly lol

We can’t always blame parenting

As said earlier for every neglectful parent there will be another one who works FT , and long Hours too

Right now this lifestyle shows up as being cool 😎, OR they have little choice as it’s their peer group

Around puberty kids to start having more views on racism and society and gravitate to their own peer group

It’s such a complex issue that we can point at one cause
It’s systemic

And it’s true , it’s murky and we don’t report it much as there are some uncomfortable truths that people
Don’t want to admit

How can we tell young kids from a
Council estate that they can aspire to a certain civilised lifestyle if they don’t see proof or believe it

GiveIrelandBackToTheIrish

True words

Legalise drugs. Tax them. Spend the tax revenues on education, youth and health services.

This will just cause a surge in new, synthetic drugs IMO. People are always looking for something new and I think a fair proportion of drug users enjoy being outside of the law and engaging in something 'risky' - especially middle class users where the real risks to their lives is relatively low.

Brilliant contribution @GiveIrelandBackToTheIrish

'I did it because my mam chose an abusive man over me, so to have respect from others was a feeling like no other. When you walk down the street and people cross to the other side because they know who you are - that's why. Also of course the obvious when you grow up in a shitty estate on the breadline surrounded by this you become desensitised to it. Also what someone mentioned upthread when you're let down by the state so many times I had no faith in them'

You did it because of your dm, your shitty estate and being let down by the state?!

How about taking some responsibility. You did it because you wanted the financial gains and weren't scared how you got it.

There needs to be some kind of activist movement to really inspire people to do better. Why are young lives so dispensable?!

People need to stop spouting stuff they've read from Mail articles or online blogs / videos, sit down, and read @GiveIrelandBackToTheIrish post WORD FOR WORD

this is the voice of experience. Anything else is a fair viewpoint but not a lived one.

I didn’t go to a school resembling Eton in way, shape or form but I’ve managed to get without murdering anyone

@Ginuwine

People need to stop spouting stuff they've read from Mail articles or online blogs / videos, sit down, and read *@GiveIrelandBackToTheIrish* post WORD FOR WORD

this is the voice of experience. Anything else is a fair viewpoint but not a lived one.

I did.

'When you walk down the street and people cross to the other side because they know who you are - that's why. '

🙄

Kids get into gangs because they want the drugs, the violence and the blingy designer gear. Many people grow up on benefits but don't aspire to have people cross the road to avoid them and be chuffed of this 'status'.

Grime and rap celebs need to stop glamourising the culture, there needs to be better parenting, community leadership, more policing and tougher sentences.

Ah thanks @JaniieJones for helping discredit someone else's lived experience and dismissing it because you alone know the motivations for why people join gangs.

Without you I'd have mistaken @GiveIrelandBackToTheIrish post as some sort of universal statement on gang life

Saying it's all down to the music is like saying DV exists because of Tom Jones songs.

Gangs recruit because they offer "security" and belonging that some families don't. Children don't do it for the "blingy gear" or the drugs they do it to meet basic human needs, which they mistakenly believe will be met by those things.You do realise these are human beings you're talking about Jones? Human beings who in their young lives have had to deal with things you can only imagine.

There needs to be some kind of activist movement to really inspire people to do better. Why are young lives so dispensable?!

Well that's the question isn't it? Because society doesn't really give a shit about the young people who end up in gangs.

'Ah thanks JaniieJones for helping discredit someone else's lived experience and dismissing it because you alone know the motivations for why people join gangs'

Anytime. I don't accept blaming others and excuses. I 'alone' don't know everyone's motivations but the pp did in fact list theirs..

'Well that's the question isn't it? Because society doesn't really give a shit about the young people who end up in gangs.'

No but they give a shit about the amount of stabbings.

No but they give a shit about the amount of stabbings.

Society doesn't care, so many stabbing barely make the news. I know some people don't like it on their doorstep in case it impacts house prices but that's not quite the same.

It’s a really complex issue.
One thing that needs to be said though is that children growing up in inner city areas will know a wide range of people from school. It’s not ok to assume that victims are involved in gang activity. It can be mistaken identity, wrong place wrong time or just being in the park with a group you knew from primary and something kicks off.
Also the use of the word gang can be problematic. There is a current issue in Manchester with sentences handed to black youths who were deemed to be in a gang ( AI - it has been widely publicised). Young men were given sentences of up to 17 years for the murder of the brother of the Manchester arena bomber. Most of them were not there at the time of the murder. Contrast that with the treatment of the Manchester Grammar boy who actually stabbed a boy to death.
Growing up in inner cities is a minefield for teenagers.

@sandgrown

Might seem a stupid question but where are all the guns coming from ? Where do these people buy bullets . Surely police can target these supply lines . My original thought is that guns came in with immigrants from war torn countries where life is cheap . The same with knives . I am in my 60s and had to get authorisation to buy a kitchen knife in a well known store . Do the parents of the younger gang members never question where their kids are at night? If they are doing county lines surely they are away all night ?

The black market. They sometimes slip through in the post as border force isn't infallible. Private planes. Shipping cargo gets through. Also modified BB guns and air rifles. Plus, many of the guns in the U.K. have been here decades. They're used, sold, hidden, used again when they're not hot and on and on until seized. Plus, there are thousands of legal guns in the U.K. that can be stolen.

It's an exciting lifestyle plus the promise of easy money. Would you rather work 9 to 5 in a boring job for min wage or be a drug dealer and gang member with a tons of cash and living like you're in Grand Theft Auto.

Obviously, most of us don't want that as we understand that it's a horrible life but if all your influences- the music you listen to, your friends, the artists you admire - all support this way of life and you're a 14 year old with not much else going on, of course you're going to head that way.

Someone needs to do something but frankly, no one knows what.

Someone needs to do something but frankly, no one knows what

It's been said upthread, but not voting Tory would be a good start.

Exactly that @dayswithaY

It's been said upthread, but not voting Tory would be a good start.
What are Labour promising - I've not heard this mentioned particularly.

It's pointless having more police if their hand are tied behind their back.

That dickhead mayor in London has plenty to answer for.

Want knives off the streets? Increase stop search and make it a mandatory 3 years in prison if one is found.

Criminals have such an advantage in the UK it's laughable.