To think Boris should not have been married in Westmister Cathedral?

[buggerbuggery]

Divorced people are not allowed to be married in a Catholic church. Boris Johnson has been married twice before. His first marriage was annulled, so the church does not count. But his second marriage does count. So he should never have been allowed to marry in a Catholic Cathedral.

@Moules

My mum has a masters in Catholic theology and confirmed that if the first marriage(s) weren’t performed in the Catholic Church, you can remarry in the church. That was also always my understanding.

I have to say though, as a practicing Catholic I couldn’t care less

This is incorrect

All of the horrific, unspeakable things the Catholic Church is responsible for and/or has turned a blind eye to, and you're concerned about this? Really?

I think the point being made is that is emblematic of all the horrific unspeakable things the Catholic Church has been responsible for.

All hellfire and brimstone about sex/ babies before marriage, adulterers, divorce ... but in fact if you are cunning there are ways round most things that enable you to get away with it.

A former school friend who is a Catholic priest (and raging Tory incidentally) explained "the rules". All legal marriages are recognised by the Catholic Church but only "sacramental" ones are spiritually relevant (ie would prevent you marrying in Catholic Church subsequently when the former spouse is still living).

A sacramental marriage is where two baptised people marry. But if at least one is a baptised Catholic there are extra rules to create a sacramental marriage. If the Catholic is marrying a non Catholic they need to obtain special permission from the Church. And/or if two Catholics are marrying but not in the Catholic Church, similar permission is required.

If the criteria are not satisfied the couple has a mere "natural" marriage which can be legally dissolved without any impediment to a further Catholic sacramental marriage.

Boris is (surprisingly) a baptised, albeit non practising, Catholic. His first marriage was to a Scottish (so I am assuming but willing to be corrected, protestant) woman who married him in the Chapel of her ancestral home (I assume again protestant). With no permission sought = no sacramental marriage.

Second marriage, civil ceremony and to a non Catholic = no sacramental marriage.

So Boris is both Catholic and sacramentally free. Carrie is also Catholic and never previously married. So (astonishingly) is quite right and proper to marry in the Catholic Church.

He didn't even need an annulment. Though in the Catholic Church annulments seem easier to obtain than you would think. One of the criteria is that one of the previously married parties "did not intend at the time of that marriage to be faithful or for the marriage to be a permanent arrangement ".

Gobsmacked.

To be honest, this just smacks of how the church operates full stop really. Sneaky.

Who really cares? Time to get a life for goodness’ sake!

@NotFrozen

Why bother opening and commenting on a thread about it then? Go on, buzz off.

Indeed who cares? Or more to the point why care! Why care? Perhaps a deeper drive would easily reveal the implications and connotations and contradictions of broken rules causing confusion and harm. Particularly in a leadership role. After all we are discussing the principles of faith, faithfulness, trust, rules of engagement and respect, responsibilities and supposedly being holly. Arguably the noted character being discussed here who incidentally has a mixed international and religious (including Kamal Ottoman Muslim ances?) as well as possibly regal heritage, has repeatedly been a rule to himself and making a mockery of all and especially those who he is leading and giving pandemic rules and instructions to. In other words someone who don’t care about compliance to rules (corruption and sleaze as reported) but hypocritically making rules for others to follow. Seemingly finding his own rules that suit his cause even religious rules. Simply is this a character you can have faith in doing what is right and decent or is all the off the scale corruption and incompetence with thousands of unnecessary lives lost acceptable because he is creating his own principles and evading/twisting rules based on getting Brexit and vaccination done?

Not being RC I have no views on the matter.

I response to pp saying I should buzz off- this is AIBU, so it is appropriate for me to comment and say the OP was BU

‘To clarify - you do actually mean invalid (only) in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church and not according to the law of the legal jurisdiction nor another religious or recognised non religious custom? For instance a shot gun Las Vegas drive through Elvis chapel, to offer a crazy extreme example. In addition the issues of Roman Catholic invalidity of former non Catholic marriage(s) would be unilateral only?’

Yes. It is only invalid in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

Also if two non catholics got married in an elvis drive by marriage, the church would view that as valid but non sacramental.

And the church would still recognise that an invalid marriage is legally still a marriage.

I despise Boris Johnson and couldn't give two fucks about his wedding. But I don't think any rules have been broken here. My DH was married previously in a CofE church. He divorced his first wife. We married some time later in a Catholic Church. Both of us baptised Catholics. No rules were bent for us - it was all very straightforward.

Thing is - why do you think the Catholic church would bend rules for Boris? He's not a saint or a show convert. He's an embarrassment. This is embarrassing for the church because they know his reputation and they won't expect most people in Britain to follow their regulations. So what should they do - refuse Carrie a Catholic marriage because of the optics, or follow their own rules and marry them?

This was never my understanding of the Catholic Church’s stance - I thought if you’d been married either in a church of any kind or a civil wedding you couldn’t marry again in the Catholic Church.

On one level I couldn’t care less, but on another fhe hypocrisy of it is staggering. One rule for the PM and one for everyone else.

But if the Catholic church has decided to come into the 21st century across the board then great! Only hoping to see gay marriages next.

In a Catholic church I mean. I know there are gay marriages generally!

The Catholic Church has not changed the rules. I am in a similar position to Boris (I married a Catholic in an Anglican Church) and I plan to get my marriage deemed invalid.

It is canon law and nothing to do with his wealth.

Sorry, not sure why I am confused about my own wedding!

I am in the Anglican Church and married a Catholic in a registry office!!!!!

It's really not one rule for him and one for everyone else. Your understanding was incorrect. The RC church doesn't see civic marriages as sacraments - why would it? Is separation of church and state not a good thing?

There's plenty to contest of course in Catholic teaching, but berating the church for following its own rules in this case as in any other seems a bit silly.

Who gives a shit?

Of all the many wrongs committed by the Catholic Church, this one would seem by far to be the most minor.

My first wedding was civil - so my second was allowed to be in the Catholic Church. (I am a baptised catholic if that makes a difference?). I’m not anyone important, so I guess it must be allowed somewhere and nothing to do with him being PM

@buggerbuggery

Divorced people are not allowed to be married in a Catholic church. Boris Johnson has been married twice before. His first marriage was annulled, so the church does not count. But his second marriage does count. So he should never have been allowed to marry in a Catholic Cathedral.

I’m Catholic and was allowed to be married for the second time in church because my first marriage wasn’t done in a Catholic Church. Therefore my priest didn’t recognise the first marriage as valid, and I was allowed to marry in the Catholic Church.

Wow, I wish I had time to worry about stuff like this 😂😂😂

If his previous marriages were civil ceremonies then the Catholic church would not recognise them and do this would be seen as his first marriage.

‘My first wedding was civil - so my second was allowed to be in the Catholic Church. (I am a baptised catholic if that makes a difference?). I’m not anyone important, so I guess it must be allowed somewhere and nothing to do with him being PM’

Yes it makes a difference.

I am a non Catholic who married a Catholic in a civil ceremony. I am going to get the church to declare my marriage invalid.

If I had been a non Catholic who had married another non Catholic in a civil ceremony, the Catholic Church would say my marriage was valid.

I don’t give a flying fuck where or how he got married. What I do care about is the hell he has wrought on us and the families of those who have died from Covid. He must be held accountable for his actions. His private life is irrelevant.

@buggerbuggery

Divorced people are not allowed to be married in a Catholic church.
That's not true.

Boris Johnson has been married twice before. His first marriage was annulled, so the church does not count. But his second marriage does count.
No, not if it took place in a church other than a RC church, without a canonically valid RC ceremony.
CoE weddings do not count.
Nor do any other protestant denominations, or non-Christian ceremonies.
Registry office weddings don't count either.

So he should never have been allowed to marry in a Catholic Cathedral.
YABU because you are wrong.

A Fr Mark Drew was quoted in a BBC article on this topic, and he was dead wrong.
www.bbc.com/news/uk-57296472
Father Mark Drew, assistant priest at St Joseph's Church in Penketh, Warrington, said he has previously had to tell Catholic couples going through a divorce they are not able to remarry in the Church.

"It looks to them - rightly or wrongly - as if the Church is applying double standards and I do fear that this decision does make the Church look bad."

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Hopefully his local bishop will see the article and set him straight.

Fancy getting his second marriage made invalid when he has 4 children from it. He really is a hog.