Is three bottles of wine a week too much?

[PinkOrchidDream]

My husband, not me. Since I've been pregnant, so abstaining from drink altogether, I've been more aware of his drinking. It's by no means a problem judging by his behaviour but I just wondered if this is (obviously a bit unhealthy) but normal for some. It's spread out over the week so he doesn't binge at weekends.

@sadperson16 I don't work in a hospital, but I think an alcohol inpatient unit would detox someone who was alcohol dependent so that they can stay in hospital without getting alcohol withdrawals, which are very serious and can be fatal in some cases. There's probably more to it than just that though and I'm sure someone else can give more info.

It doesn't matter whether we think it's a lot. It's a lot for his body to deal with. He may be fine, psychologically. But the strain on his organs..

Ps, not trying to sound judgey. I just haven't really drunk since my teens..I hated the fact it made me feel dizzy but we all have coping mechanisms, vices..

Obviously we need recommendations as guidelines but they should be taken with a pinch of salt and individuals can decide their own personal acceptable risk with regards to their own bodies. Getting in a car has a risk of an accident (injury, stress, financial implications, death, hurting other people) but we still do that, even when it's not strictly necessary.
Of course people can make their own decisions, but there seems to be a growing trend for people with (probably) zero medical or scientific background deciding "I know my personal risk / it's up to me to decide what the risk is" when what they tend to mean is "I know what I want to do and if the people who are educated in a field say otherwise then I'll pretend that my opinion is equal to what experts say, or worse argue that the medical/health guidelines are wrong".

If a hypothetical person wants to decide that 2 bottles a day is acceptable risk for them they they can get on with it, but they don't get the right to join a discussion on alcohol consumption and say "ah well it's just guidelines, guidelines aren't perfect, I drink 2 bottles of wine a day and am absolutely fine so other people shouldn't bother paying attention to the guidelines".

It's exactly the same situation when people say "my mum, aunty and cousins smoked through pregnancy and nothing bad happened so the science is wrong", or "I didn't know I was pregnant and went to Ibiza for a fortnight drinking and my baby was fine so there's no need to follow guidance on drinking in pregnancy".

@LolaSmiles but I said "with regards to their own bodies" which can't really be compared with pregnancy (which is a bit of a minefield because when does not policing women's bodies become allowing unborn child abuse etc etc).

Medical professionals do have more knowledge, data and expertise - obviously - and therefore guidelines are useful. HOWEVER, at some point they would have had to draw a line somewhere as to what potential bodily damage is 'acceptable' in the average person (ie is a 5% increased risk of liver damage acceptable? A 10%? A 15%?). I personally think 3 bottles of wine a week is a lot but if this person is functioning, not getting drunk all the time from it, not increasing drinking, not hurting anyone, could stop drinking if they wanted and is in otherwise good health then they might decide it is an acceptable risk to themselves.

LadyOfLittleLeisure
I agree, it was more an observation that often people tend to take their choice to ignore guidelines and then extrapolate it to argue guidelines are rubbish, or deny that theh don't have a problem.

Just because someone is functioning whilst consuming excess alcohol doesn't mean they don't have an alcohol problem, and it doesn't mean their consumption is ok.

There's plenty of people in professional jobs to who consume far too much alcohol on a regular basis, and seem to think that because they aren't drunk, there isn't a problem. They've got a good job and they don't look like an alcoholic so think their alcohol consumption is fine. They might not drink every night so think that's proof they aren't an alcoholic, or they might cite the fact they go all weekend without drinking as proof their consumption is fine, whilst still drinking almost every night they come home feeling stressed. Alcohol is still a crutch for them and a coping response, and they still consume far more than the guidelines, but they think that because they look like a nice respectable person and they drink wine, not cheap larger or spirits, that there's no problem. It's often another form of denial.

It sounds a lot too me - I'd be in a miserable way if I drank that much! - but then I'm "as close to as makes no difference" tee-total. I have maybe 3 or 4 drinks a year. Haven't had an alcoholic drink yet this year.

@LolaSmiles

LadyOfLittleLeisure I agree, it was more an observation that often people tend to take their choice to ignore guidelines and then extrapolate it to argue guidelines are rubbish, or deny that theh don't have a problem.

Just because someone is functioning whilst consuming excess alcohol doesn't mean they don't have an alcohol problem, and it doesn't mean their consumption is ok.

There's plenty of people in professional jobs to who consume far too much alcohol on a regular basis, and seem to think that because they aren't drunk, there isn't a problem. They've got a good job and they don't look like an alcoholic so think their alcohol consumption is fine. They might not drink every night so think that's proof they aren't an alcoholic, or they might cite the fact they go all weekend without drinking as proof their consumption is fine, whilst still drinking almost every night they come home feeling stressed. Alcohol is still a crutch for them and a coping response, and they still consume far more than the guidelines, but they think that because they look like a nice respectable person and they drink wine, not cheap larger or spirits, that there's no problem. It's often another form of denial.

I agree.

I'm a primary school teacher, and can easily think of at least 2 teachers I know well, who I'd say fall into the category of "functioning alcoholic".

@LolaSmiles agree that it's more about relationship with alcohol. I still think there's a big difference between someone who maybe drinks a bit too much and an alcoholic (and I too know quite a few functioning alcoholics)

LadyOfLittleLeisure
I'm not convinced there's a big difference, more a sliding scale, and a lot of people who would argue they're not an alcoholic/don't have an alcohol problem, yet their actions and attitude suggest there's something problematic there.

People who drink a little too much and don't have an alcohol problem would be likely to say "I have a bit more than the guidelines, and I accept that".
As soon as people get into defensive "I drink more more the guidelines...but I don't get drunk... but it doesn't affect me... but it's just a couple of glasses of wine a night... but it's just a few glasses of wine to unwind... but it's not like I drink every day... but I don't drink at the weekends... but I don't binge drink... but I don't end up hungover... but I still have a nice job... but I still go to the gym..." then it's probably an indication that they are further along the scale than they'd want to admit. Their whole outlook is based on defending and justifying and minimising their alcohol consumption.

@LolaSmiles

LadyOfLittleLeisure I'm not convinced there's a big difference, more a sliding scale, and a lot of people who would argue they're not an alcoholic/don't have an alcohol problem, yet their actions and attitude suggest there's something problematic there.

People who drink a little too much and don't have an alcohol problem would be likely to say "I have a bit more than the guidelines, and I accept that".
As soon as people get into defensive "I drink more more the guidelines...but I don't get drunk... but it doesn't affect me... but it's just a couple of glasses of wine a night... but it's just a few glasses of wine to unwind... but it's not like I drink every day... but I don't drink at the weekends... but I don't binge drink... but I don't end up hungover... but I still have a nice job... but I still go to the gym..." then it's probably an indication that they are further along the scale than they'd want to admit. Their whole outlook is based on defending and justifying and minimising their alcohol consumption.

Great post

I don't think after this mysterious "referral" a 3 bottle a week male is going to be offered medical detox.

There is a long waiting list and consumption is not in that league.

Firstly 3 bottles a week and no other symptoms isn't enough to get treatment - there's along waiting list. He may not even have any pyschological or physical dependence at that level of drinking. Is it unhealthy? Yes it increases his chances of certain types of cancer and other diseases. My uncle worked on a liver ward and said it's very much luck of the draw. He does see patients with liver damage from only drinking a couple of glasses a night. Where as some people can drink a bottle a night or more and their liver doesn't suffer nearly as much. Liver damage is becoming massively more common though so the fact you drink what you consider a normal amount doesn't mean you won't suffer serious consequences.

I think the lady talking about a referral was talking about if you came into hospital saying you drank that much she would have you assessed for dependence because if you were dependent you would need to be detoxed before you could stay in hospital. This isn't really to address your alcohol use - problematic or not - it's simply to make it safe for alcohol dependent people to stay in hospital where they can't get access to alcohol and would go into withdrawal.
I think it's misleading to say there's a long wait for 'treatment' as there will be regional differences and also people mean different things by treatment. Residential treatment (rehab) is hard to access if you don't want to pay privately and costs £600-£1000 a day at a conservative estimate. To receive funding you'll often have to prove a commitment to recovery by attending groups at a community drug and alcohol service first. At the other end of the scale GPs can usually offer a 'brief intervention' (a structured conversation about your drinking and help to plan to reduce) and for those who are dependent can prescribe drugs for a home detox, although not all will do this as there's a high relapse rate. It's sometimes seen as a quick fix to get someone back to work or something. Different community services will offer different things. Sometimes these are oversubscribed as funding for community alcohol treatment has always been quite low.
I'm purposely not wading into the debate about whether 3 bottles of wine is too much. I guess for some it might be, for others it won't. I have seen some very nice people have some very nasty experiences when their alcohol use became a problem.

So if a male,let's say 6',weighing 13 stone was admitted to hospital and it came to light,he was drinking 3 bottles of wine per week,that person would be referred for detox before further treatment?

@sadperson16 I don't know the answer to that. I imagine the clinician would make a decision about whether to refer and there would be some kind of assessment to gauge whether they were dependent or not? Maybe to find out if they had any problems if they tried to give up on their own? I don't think it's done on weight/height/volume but I'm not 100% sure tbh.

I’m am a light drinker at social events so weddings, Christmas, birthdays stuff like that.

I question the need for alcohol every day to unwind and relax even if it’s a small amount. I think needing it every day even a glass is not ideal. I know it’s legal but I think dependence on anything we consume is not great.

But I grew up with a Mother and Stepfather who were functioning alcoholics. Both with very well paid professional jobs, he died in his early fifties with an alcohol related illness. They never missed work or looked a mess or anything that people relate to being an alcoholic. We lived in a huge beautiful house. They were pillars of the local community in the small seaside town we lived in but they were alcoholics. I have known many of my colleagues drink like my parents, every day thinking it is ok.

To add, seeing what happened to them made me very wary of alcohol whereas younger sister is alcohol dependant like them and to a worse extent. She was drinking at least half a bottle of vodka a day at one point.

@Shareddriveagghh

I’m am a light drinker at social events so weddings, Christmas, birthdays stuff like that.

I question the need for alcohol every day to unwind and relax even if it’s a small amount. I think needing it every day even a glass is not ideal. I know it’s legal but I think dependence on anything we consume is not great.

But I grew up with a Mother and Stepfather who were functioning alcoholics. Both with very well paid professional jobs, he died in his early fifties with an alcohol related illness. They never missed work or looked a mess or anything that people relate to being an alcoholic. We lived in a huge beautiful house. They were pillars of the local community in the small seaside town we lived in but they were alcoholics. I have known many of my colleagues drink like my parents, every day thinking it is ok.

I think this is the key point.

Our idea of what's 'too much' is completely skewed and people presume that legal equals safe.

@sadperson16

So if a male,let's say 6',weighing 13 stone was admitted to hospital and it came to light,he was drinking 3 bottles of wine per week,that person would be referred for detox before further treatment?

Absolutely not.

@LolaSmiles

LadyOfLittleLeisure I agree, it was more an observation that often people tend to take their choice to ignore guidelines and then extrapolate it to argue guidelines are rubbish, or deny that theh don't have a problem.

Just because someone is functioning whilst consuming excess alcohol doesn't mean they don't have an alcohol problem, and it doesn't mean their consumption is ok.

There's plenty of people in professional jobs to who consume far too much alcohol on a regular basis, and seem to think that because they aren't drunk, there isn't a problem. They've got a good job and they don't look like an alcoholic so think their alcohol consumption is fine. They might not drink every night so think that's proof they aren't an alcoholic, or they might cite the fact they go all weekend without drinking as proof their consumption is fine, whilst still drinking almost every night they come home feeling stressed. Alcohol is still a crutch for them and a coping response, and they still consume far more than the guidelines, but they think that because they look like a nice respectable person and they drink wine, not cheap larger or spirits, that there's no problem. It's often another form of denial.

But in denial of what? Honestly, even if someone is using it as a crutch, but it isn't affecting their daily life, what's the problem with using it as said crutch? Now, I absolutely get it's not a healthy crutch, but neither is too much sugar or chocolate etc. We all do things that aren't healthy, but the shame some people are trying to impose because someone likes a drink is a bit much. No one is going into detox for three bottles a week.

For person asking if 3 bottle of wine a week drinker would need detox- I found this on Drinkaware website "Alcohol withdrawal symptoms are most likely to be experienced by people drinking 8 or moreunits of alcohol, 5 or more nights a week." www.drinkaware.co.uk/facts/health-effects-of-alcohol/mental-health/alcohol-withdrawal-symptoms
Apparently a bottle of wine is 10 units, so suggests pos not, but close enough to make sense why the nurse who posted previously would say she would get them assessed. Very interesting.

No one is going into detox for three bottles a week

precisely.

half the country would be swamping the system.

Given the completely crappy last 16 months is it any wonder that many are drinking a bit more than is good for them— when I read of mums and dads home schooling and trying to hold down full time jobs with a complete lack of space for all to be around each other quite e so much— I’m amazed the drinking problem isn’t off the scale.

@Crikeyalmighty

Given the completely crappy last 16 months is it any wonder that many are drinking a bit more than is good for them— when I read of mums and dads home schooling and trying to hold down full time jobs with a complete lack of space for all to be around each other quite e so much— I’m amazed the drinking problem isn’t off the scale.

Drinking has never, and will never, fixed a damn thing

@Crikeyalmighty

Given the completely crappy last 16 months is it any wonder that many are drinking a bit more than is good for them— when I read of mums and dads home schooling and trying to hold down full time jobs with a complete lack of space for all to be around each other quite e so much— I’m amazed the drinking problem isn’t off the scale.

If you need alcohol to cope with life for a long period of time, then you have problems.