Higher education: Guardian article makes me want to vote Conservative

[Flaymproof]

This opinion piece today is idiotic: amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/20/boris-johnson-arts-degrees-conservative-funds
Nobody is trying to ban arts degrees, and everyone can agree they have high value, but there are just too bloody many of them. While they have been up on their pedestal there has been a chronic shortage of STEM graduates and skilled tradespeople which is damaging to the economy. There has also been a shortage of teachers in these fields, which leads to a vicious circle. It's not about encouraging young people into higher paid jobs - that's just a carrot - it's about addressing a real need for certain skills and facing down the twentieth century myth, passed on by parents with their heads in the sand, that it doesn't matter what degree you have, so long as you have one.

Firstly, I don’t think there is a shortage of STEM grads.

Secondly, with lots of arts degrees, it’s not having one, but what you do with it that’s important. I know arts grads in all kinds of fields, from law to finance to IT to policy to consulting. No evidence at all that they’d be better at those jobs if they did a different degree.

Perhaps there should be a shift away from uni places to apprenticeships and the like, but that but arts degree have always been valuable in the workforce if handled properly.

Maybe we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in if we had more people with a good grasp of history and the ability to critically appraise information and to distinguish between fact and opinion.

I don’t disagree that we need better applied and vocational training not just more pure maths and physics graduates who largely seem to become actuaries or accountants anyway .

Firstly, I don’t think there is a shortage of STEM grads.

Well there is. So you're wrong.

What's more interesting is that when you look at the cabinet, most of them have arts and humanities degree.

Whilst I'm in favour of people considering the options available after their degree, between this announcement and effectively presiding over the narrowing of school curricula, the government have a real issue with your average child going to have a classical education. Classics, humanities and the arts are for the wealthy who can network their way into politics, but the rest of you ought to study STEM so you can be useful to our economy.

Well there is. So you're wrong.
That's us told then - ability to form and follow through an argumenta, with critical thinking skills should not be overlooked. Nor should the fact that some people go into further education because of interest in subject and for academic rigour

Well there is. So you're wrong.

Always good to have a nuanced discussion.

I want to see people be able to do the degree they want to do, in subjects in which they're interested or about which they're passionate. Arts degrees shouldn't just be available to those who can afford it. Education shouldn't just be about your ultimate financial worth to the economy.

I would like to see the gender divide as I suspect it will affect more females than males.

Nobody's stopping you voting Tory last time I looked.

I think arts degrees are great and we should be pleased that people do them. STEM likewise. Trying to dictate what people do will prevent some people from reaching their potential and it devalues arts degrees. It's pretty obvious why the government might prefer it if people hadn't studied history though.

So you think that someone who is talented enough to do a drama or arts degree, can switch to STEM instead? Or do you think that as a country we can't afford for people to do arts degrees?
We do have enough skilled people, as in the building trade, engineering. That might not apply to a few parts of the country, but that's a separate issue.

Why would this make you vote Tory? What about Healthcare degrees and all of the others. The people on them are getting fucked over by Tory governments.

Classics, humanities and the arts are for the wealthy who can network their way into politics, but the rest of you ought to study STEM so you can be useful to our economy.

God, as mother to a child from a very average background who absolutely excels at arts subjects and, more importantly loves them, this is the most depressing thing I've read in a long while. He's a bright kid who does well at everything. luckily, but his top 3 subjects are history, drama and English. Do I have to tell him to forget those?

I don’t think you can lump all stem together and say we have a lack of graduates. I think we do have a lack of certain science/maths grads (probably physics/chem more than bio) which does hamper the economy - specific grants to reduce fees for these courses could be beneficial.

Personally I think many jobs do not require a uni degree and it is unfortunate that many companies put this as a requirement for jobs. It is changing though and some firms can take students straight after a level to do apprenticeships in engineering, accountancy etc.

TheKeatingFive

Firstly, I don’t think there is a shortage of STEM grads.”

There are certainly not enough maths, sciences or engineering graduates to meet or needs (especially if the so-called green revolution is to succeed).
Scrapping fees for those subjects would help.

I think LolaSmiles makes a very good point. This isn't just about cutting costs, this is about the government carrying out some social engineering. It's in line with a party that knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

God, as mother to a child from a very average background who absolutely excels at arts subjects and, more importantly loves them, this is the most depressing thing I've read in a long while. He's a bright kid who does well at everything. luckily, but his top 3 subjects are history, drama and English.
Do I have to tell him to forget those?

I don't think my sarcasm came across well in my post. I was mimicking the government attitude and mocking it.

Their whole approach to education seems to be grounded in broad education for the rich, classics for the rich, range of literature for the rich, MFL for the rich, drama and the arts for the rich as they're well respected in private schools, debating and oracy for the rich, humanities degrees for the rich, and so on, but then for your average child it's very much narrowing subject options, schools forced to cutting the arts, staff to swamped to run extensive enrichment, STEM is heavily pushed, arts and humanities degrees are apparently useless.
One comment I saw for this article said that they don't want us plebs to be exposed to radical ideas as it might give us ideas above our station. I think they were probably right.

I think it's more about ensuring the quality of the degree, and also that students are not duped into paying vast sums for a degree that is not going to be useful.
Nothing wrong with an arts degree but all degrees should be academically rigorous.
That applies to science as well. For example you can now do a degree in veterinary nursing. That requires 5 years extra of being unpaid compared to entering a job at 16 and doing day release to attend college. The job (once qualified) is paid at minimum wage or slightly above. It's not really clear that the degree gives any advantage - the job is mainly practical and in any case the non degree route still includes a lot of scientific background. Why are people being encouraged into huge debts and 5 years lost earnings potential to end up in a job that pays worse than a shelf stacker at a supermarket? Degree qualified vet nurses aren't paid more or seen as better than the vocational trained ones.
The real shortage in this country is skilled tradespeople. Those careers are certainly better paid than many graduates are ever likely to see. Yet there is a certain snobbery around non university education and training that needs to be overcome. Education is great but doing a university degree isn't the best route for either science or arts, necessarily. Other countries have much better vocational training for non academic careers.

The same sort of thing happened in the 80s and led to me not being able to do the language degree I wanted to (and would have been good at ) because my parents thought it was worthless and a waste of time. They encouraged me not to go to University at all. That's a young person's future and dreams you're chucking away. It's totally a class thing because rich people won't be giving up their humanities subjects, they just don't want the plebs doing it.

I would like to see the gender divide as I suspect it will affect more females than males.

Possibly, but women are over represented in healthcare and biology. It may turn out fairly even as suspect more men in physics and maths

It's totally a class thing because rich people won't be giving up their humanities subjects, they just don't want the plebs doing it.
Of course they won't.

There's a well-trodden route from wealthy home, to independent school, to certain universities to study Politics, Philosophy and Economics whilst raising your profile in the Union society in order to network with other wealthy, well-connected young adults, then straight into law/politics/lobbying.

He's a bright kid who does well at everything. luckily, but his top 3 subjects are history, drama and English. Do I have to tell him to forget those?

No but don't let him attend a mediocre institution to do a pointless degree. Encourage him to research universities properly to find out what they have to offer and what their ratings are, not just go where his friends go or where there is good nightlife etc.
University degrees are not all equal.

I have a Stem degree and M.Sc., but I don't really think there are a shortage of Stem Grads.

What I think is that we should get back to sending about 10% of the population to university.

Then improve Stem subjects being taught to school children.

Then have a quality apprenticeship program for those that don't go to university.

So you think that someone who is talented enough to do a drama or arts degree, can switch to STEM instead? Or do you think that as a country we can't afford for people to do arts degrees?

The problem is that many students who are not that talented are doing arts degrees as an easier option. The genuinely talented will always do well, provided they make good choices in subject and institution. But there's really no point in someone who just likes fashion to do a degree in fashion for example. Unless they are fully aware that it's only for their own interest and not going to lead to a career.

No, there isn’t a shortage of STEM graduates. The skills in most demand are soft skills now, not hard skills.

Anyway who would want a doctor whose real talent is in say drama

It's a tricky thing to tackle though isn't it. I know plenty of people with arts degrees and work in minimum wage jobs that are totally unrelated. They enjoyed their courses but from a society point of view, what was the point?

I think that more jobs should have testing at interview stage rather than just putting a degree down as a requirement because it sets a benchmark over a person's level of commitment or ability. As someone without a degree I find it annoying that I'm disadvantaged over graduates in unrelated degrees.