Higher education: Guardian article makes me want to vote Conservative

[Flaymproof]

This opinion piece today is idiotic: amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/20/boris-johnson-arts-degrees-conservative-funds
Nobody is trying to ban arts degrees, and everyone can agree they have high value, but there are just too bloody many of them. While they have been up on their pedestal there has been a chronic shortage of STEM graduates and skilled tradespeople which is damaging to the economy. There has also been a shortage of teachers in these fields, which leads to a vicious circle. It's not about encouraging young people into higher paid jobs - that's just a carrot - it's about addressing a real need for certain skills and facing down the twentieth century myth, passed on by parents with their heads in the sand, that it doesn't matter what degree you have, so long as you have one.

Finance is lucrative and financial gain and specific interest in the work (which can be very technical) will mean that a proportion of stem graduates will go there. It is entirely logical to have a co-existing lack of stem graduates for other jobs like teaching and specific engineering fields (DH’s company has tried recruiting for a long time for posts). Some stem jobs that pay less may end up having non specialists in them because the average pay of those specific subjects (eg physics, maths, engineering) is much higher than other subjects.

Some of these stem jobs do not actually need a degree in the subject to do them (I am a career changer bio- grad doing IT job). But on a team, I think it is helpful to have a mix of people - some with more taught academic and some with more real life work experience with on-the-job training (with potential to do part time degree after). I think U.K. doesn’t currently have enough of the latter.

@Bluebird76

The creative industries are one of the UKs biggest assets, worth billions. Even on a strict economic calculus, we need graduates in art, design, music and drama. Look around you. Who designed the objects in your home? The scissors, the plates, the door handles, the magazines on the rack, the chairs, etc etc etc etc etc. Oh yes, that would be art and design graduates. Watch TV, listen to the radio, go to the theatre, a concert? Oh yes, more arts graduates - drama, music, film - all the subjects the government is proposing to take a wrecking ball to. What they are doing here is both culturally illiterate and economically indefensible.

Looking through the credits of many of my favourite TV shows and films, plenty of people didn't have a degree, instead having learned their craft at one of the theatre schools or in some cases got in as a writer through getting a job as a scene shifter.

Again though, do you get a great designer (of the non-technical sort) by having them write 15,000 words about it or would their time be better spent learning as an apprentice?
It sounds as though you think that in order to be academic, a design degree involves only it mainly writing essays about design. That's not the case, any more than, say, a chemistry degree would involve mainly writing essays about chemists rather than being in the lab. Degrees in design - as with other practical arts subjects - mainly involve producing your own work. 'Academic rigour' does not have to mean 'writing essays and sitting exams'.

And the thing with apprenticeships is that they're likely to be quite specific, because on-the-job study is inevitably shaped quite a bit by the specific work environment you're working in. People embarking on a route to practical arts degrees are often still exploring what route to take within that broader subject, and university study allows gradual specialisation as you start to discover where your strengths and interests lie. Often a lot of the specialisms you might pursue involve access to equipment and materials you aren't likely to have encountered at home or school (or, not to anything like the same extent), so knowing in advance that this area of practice is the one for you is difficult.

My first degree was in Fine Art, and the route to that was first through a very broad A-Level, then on to Foundation Art - which I went into wondering if I'd maybe go towards textiles, and came out of knowing that Fine Art was the right direction for me. Then on to a degree programme that my tutors and I identified would suit me well because if it's breadth, which started with an exploratory first year trying out fine art painting, printmaking, sculpture, textiles, photography and media arts, before starting to move in a more specialist direction (although I still chose to combine several areas within my practice). If on the other hand I'd been embarking on an apprenticeship of some kind, I'd have had to try to identify one without having those opportunities to find out what different techniques and materials actually offered.

To get in before anyone asks, no, I am not now a professional artist - I didn't pursue that route. But my degree is useful and relevant to me in a daily basis in the workplace. I did also subsequently do a BSc... in design and creative writing, for fun. And then an MA. These were decidedly not 'oh no, I must counter my useless arts degree with something Proper' choices, and both have also added to my skills in the workplace, in all kinds of ways.

Firstly, there is not a shortage of STEM graduates but there is a shortage of a. STEM grads with particular qualifications/skills that are in demand and b. a severe shortage of STEM grads who are female and/or black. This matters greatly as future proofing requires design through the lens of all, not just white or Asian men.

Secondly, the arts component I'd ectremly important to the future if STEM (which is why it is not commonly referred to as STEAM).

Again though, do you get a great designer (of the non-technical sort) by having them write 15,000 words about it or would their time be better spent learning as an apprentice?

An apprentiship wouldn't offer the same opportunities, an arts degree moreso than others isn't about just learning, it's about networking, developing a high level of skill, using several different state of the art facilities that you wouldn't have access to otherwise, providing an excellent platform for networking and to gain experience, developing a professional portfolio etc. And the writing element is beneficial as it keeps doors open that may often be closed. When applying for arts funding etc as well being able to write in a certain way is beneficial.

Going to point out as well that just because you have a STEM degree does not mean you know the subject. Seen a lot of people in my area that don't know the first bloody thing despite spending 3-4 years studying it.

A lot of jobs really just don't need a degree, apprenticeships would be better, but they need to be better paid too. They usually do the same work as the other workers and get paid peanuts for it.

In what world have arts degrees ever been on a pedestal?!

The question is not whether you can gain something from a degree; but whether it is good use of govt money to fund it. Just as they could find more vet medicine places as there is high demand.

Although apprenticeships are in a specific area, there will be transferable skills, just as with a degree. If unsure, working for a while before a degree can help people decide which area suits them best. It’s good that we have different routes for different learners - but I just think apprenticeships and also non apprenticeship on-the-job training have been neglected for a while.

@SuperMonkeys

In what world have arts degrees ever been on a pedestal?!

No idea, I would say they are usually berated and ear-marked as useless, even though there are plenty of jobs in the arts. Everything we use and see has been designed after all, although I think some people think they just teach people how to paint pretty pictures.

We need to nourish both sectors. In Covid lockdowns we needed arts desperately but we also needed medical care and vaccines. If we want more talented grads why not reduce stem fees instead of cutting arts and humanities degrees?

Education should be treated as a social good in its own right. University isn't simply about providing training. It's a shame that the half baked consumer model that we now have, has turned it into this.

My DH has an art degree. He got to spend three years reading and learning for learnings sake and of course living a uni life. He then did a short computer programming course and has spent his life in IT. In every interview he has people are fascinated by his degree and they spend ages talking about it. He is unbelievably well read. I still think there is value in getting a degree in the arts even if you don’t make that your career.

It’s not like stem does all the economic heavy lifting either. The arts are a massive massive massive contributor to the UK economy.

@BrightYellowDaffodil

Well there is. So you're wrong.

Always good to have a nuanced discussion.

I want to see people be able to do the degree they want to do, in subjects in which they're interested or about which they're passionate. Arts degrees shouldn't just be available to those who can afford it. Education shouldn't just be about your ultimate financial worth to the economy.

Nuances don’t change facts. OP is right and the poster who said that there is no shortage of STEM grads is still wrong.

Arts graduates won’t develop new vaccines, advance renewable energy or develop algorithms. They can enjoy and be interested in the degree but then not moan that they can’t get a job as a graduate. This ‘everyone’s a winner’ attitude doesn’t work beyond nursery school. Everyone’s not a winner, university is not free and some qualifications are simply not worth anything like others.

It’s not that there is a shortage of graduates , it’s that there is a shortage of jobs for them to go to. Pure science jobs for graduates are very poorly paid and very precarious. We need the scientific companies to provide these jobs there is no point in getting more people to study science if we cannot give them a career path .

@Demelza82

OP you are just as reactionary, lacking in critical thinking and easily triggered as the average Tory voter, enjoy your new life

Here we go, doesn’t take long before the first one comes out of wood work accusing Tory voters of being stupid. Bravo, people like you are the reason people vote Tory. Shoot, self, foot.

@paddingtonbearsmarmalade

Creativity is one of the main skills predicted to be heavily valued by employers in the future. Creative jobs & careers are least likely to be automated. Arts subjects support creative thinking and innovation. Humanities support critical thinking and analysis.

STEM subjects and arts and humanities subjects are equally valuable to society but in different ways. How many people would have survived the last year without films/TV/books/creative hobbies? Not to mention how literally everything you use, touch, wear on a daily basis has been designed - probably by someone with an arts qualification - possibly in conjunction with someone with a STEM qual.

Pitting the two against each other is ridiculous.

Huh? So designing clothes or making a tv show is as critical as developing a vaccine or building a machine learning algorithm? What is ridiculous is equating the two because one carries more value than other - especially for survival, which is what last year has been all about.

and the poster who said that there is no shortage of STEM grads is still wrong.

Again I ask, what are these jobs we’re struggling to fill? As this thread shows, plenty of STEM grads are building careers outside STEM.

Arts graduates won’t develop new vaccines, advance renewable energy or develop algorithms.

Firstly, those aren’t the only things with economic and societal value.

Secondly, arts graduates will be involved in the legal processes behind the endeavours mentioned, the HR policies of the scientists’ work environments, the communication policy and PR support of developments in these spheres, the advertising and marketing of them, the creation of behavioural change policies to drive uptake, lobbying of government, the operations behind production and rollout, procurement, financials, I could go on and on.

Some people’s understanding of the world is remarkably limited.

@TheKeatingFive

and the poster who said that there is no shortage of STEM grads is still wrong.

Again I ask, what are these jobs we’re struggling to fill? As this thread shows, plenty of STEM grads are building careers outside STEM.

Arts graduates won’t develop new vaccines, advance renewable energy or develop algorithms.

Firstly, those aren’t the only things with economic and societal value.

Secondly, arts graduates will be involved in the legal processes behind the endeavours mentioned, the HR policies of the scientists’ work environments, the communication policy and PR support of developments in these spheres, the advertising and marketing of them, the creation of behavioural change policies to drive uptake, lobbying of government, the operations behind production and rollout, procurement, financials, I could go on and on.

Some people’s understanding of the world is remarkably limited.

Oh nice to be educated by the enlightened, how could anyone compete with your unlimited intellect. Then people wonder why people vote Tory.

Arts degrees aren't literally just art or design based, they're just not necessarily maths or science based 😂

Oh nice to be educated by the enlightened

You’re welcome

"Arts graduates won’t develop new vaccines, advance renewable energy or develop algorithms. "

No. And science graduates won't become medical ethicists without training in philosophy. Scientists won't become political analysts or linguists who can inform a foreign policy that won't send us to war with random foreign countries. Or ensure that we don't get blown up by terrorists.

Society isn't a zero sum game, we need both arts and sciences. I find it hard to believe that this is still even a debate. There are certainly valid questions to be asked about what proportion of a population needs a degree level education, and whether some subjects are necessarily best taught via a degree (though I hope for all our sakes that design doesn't become taught via apprenticeships!). But the 'arts degrees are pointless' line of argument is just reductive idiocy.

It reminds me of an Institute of Physics newsletter in which some letter-writer said something along the lines of 'Here is a tricky philosophy dilemma that philosophers have been debating for the past 3000 years - well haven't they thought of X, that would solve the issue instantly?' Yeah, because if philosophers have been debating a problem for 3000 years it can obviously be solved in a thrice by a physics graduate...(It couldn't, obviously, and he hadn't.)

@sst1234 I’m not sure where I said STEM wasn’t important, or indeed that the arts are “critical” (though increasingly we’re seeing the positive impacts on mental health of engaging with the arts, not to mention hundreds of examples demonstrating how arts participation supports soft skills development, creativity and imagination (pretty bloody important for progressing things like vaccine development), and the fact that creative careers are amongst the least likely to be automated, so arguably they are). I said they’re equally valuable in different ways.

Arts can and do help to communicate and provoke discussion about difficult topics - climate change being a prime example. Many minds are changed through reading a book or going to the theatre or watching a film.

I don’t think having or doing an arts degree is the be all and end all (despite having a BA and MA in arts related subjects and having progressed into an arts career 🙃) and there’s plenty that can be learned via apprenticeships or on the job. But, the same logic can be applied to STEM subjects, and just because some people can progress in careers in other ways, it doesn’t mean that arts degrees aren’t the right path for some, nor that arts degrees should be devalued just because the graduates “won’t develop new vaccines”.

plenty of people didn't have a degree, instead having learned their craft at one of the theatre schools

The vast amount of drama schools have degrees

Or do you mean under 18 year olds? So they went to drama school as a child, those drama schools are few and far between outside of london. Dd still blames me for us not moving to LA for her career as a child star 😀

just think apprenticeships and also non apprenticeship on-the-job training have been neglected for a while.

You're right. The government are trying address this.
There is something called the Baker clause which means schools and colleges have a legal duty to promote vocational routes alongside academic routes.
There are also the new T levels and the new skills for jobs bill.

There are some wider issues though. Vocational routes have a bit of a PR problem- they're often seen as the option for those who are not academic or who have failed.
That's absolutely not the case but it's taking a while to change the narrative.

@irresistibleoverwhelm

The target was never 50% of the cohort at university anyway - it was 50% having had experience of tertiary level education, which included diplomas, FE, vocational education including higher level NVQs and vocational apprenticeships which had some level of formal training, even if that was a two week course at a local college. (I worked for the then DfES in HE policy at the time.) It was widely misreported by the media as 50% because that was the narrative it suited them to promote.

In particular, it was easy to represent it as anti-New Labour (there’s at least one comment on this thread about Tony Blair): sadly, if you believe that one you were had, as the whole policy was brought I’ve lock stock and barrel from the previous Major government which introduced it.

New Labour were keen on it too because most business organisations were at the time; but it was originally a set of Conservative education reforms designed to increase “international competitiveness” in the 90s, especially in competition with Far East Asian economies which tend to send very high proportions of their workforce to tertiary education - much higher than 50%.

Lots of very interesting posts, but I didn’t know this so thank you

I obviously wasn’t paying attention at the time 😀

I’ve just bought ds2 a book on blair/brown, I should probably read it after him