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Higher education: Guardian article makes me want to vote Conservative

264 replies

Flaymproof · 21/05/2021 19:57

This opinion piece today is idiotic: amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/20/boris-johnson-arts-degrees-conservative-funds
Nobody is trying to ban arts degrees, and everyone can agree they have high value, but there are just too bloody many of them. While they have been up on their pedestal there has been a chronic shortage of STEM graduates and skilled tradespeople which is damaging to the economy. There has also been a shortage of teachers in these fields, which leads to a vicious circle. It's not about encouraging young people into higher paid jobs - that's just a carrot - it's about addressing a real need for certain skills and facing down the twentieth century myth, passed on by parents with their heads in the sand, that it doesn't matter what degree you have, so long as you have one.

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Namenic · 22/05/2021 19:25

I don’t think it is devaluing to say that we only need a yearly intake of 1 or 2 potential astronauts or Olympic fencers or 200 vet students per year to be funded by the govt. it doesn’t devalue what people do.

It’s just that there may be an optimum of certain types of qualifications to attract companies to base operations in U.K. It would actually be detrimental to people currently in shortage professions to have more graduates and competition for jobs, but companies may prefer it as there would be enough appropriate workers. We could relax immigration restrictions (which I think is good, but govt don’t want this). we could leave companies to train people - which would be fantastic. Or we could watch them leave - which we may not want to risk (especially with the economic hit of covid etc).

battenburgwithtea · 22/05/2021 19:34

I don’t think it is devaluing to say that we only need a yearly intake of 1 or 2 potential astronauts or Olympic fencers or 200 vet students per year to be funded by the govt

How generous of the government. Maybe they should start up student loans and make the students have to pay extra tax for ever. Oh wait...

TheKeatingFive · 22/05/2021 19:48

but companies may prefer it as there would be enough appropriate workers.

The problem doesn’t seem to be shortage of STEM grads, but attracting those grads into STEM jobs. Which is about market forces rather than anything else.

Namenic · 22/05/2021 20:12

KeatingFive - yeah I think it is a market forces issue - but one which the govt can influence by increasing the supply of shortage subject grads/apprentices (not all stem). Perhaps a better way might be to reduce their student loan repayments for the years they work specifically in the shortage subject?

Also - what to do about teaching maths and physics? Private schools can afford to employ specialist maths and physics teachers who did the subjects at uni, but state schools find it harder. Is this going to lead to a 2 tier system too?

battenburgwithtea · 22/05/2021 20:28

Kids without specialist or very good maths and physics teachers are less likely to choose to study it at Uni. The answer might be to massively increase the pay at teacher level, then they will inspire more kids to study it.

Taliskerskye · 22/05/2021 20:29

I did an arts degree and work in the arts
I don’t come from privilege

But I am the odd one out. It’s not to do with academic ability, it is literally the preserve of the wealthy to to work in the art world. The art world is badly paid and badly funded and entirely white and privileged.

Do people really honestly think there are too many arts degrees! Because when I last looked my old uni scrapped art history, and I gave a lecture to Oxford university students about their career prospects and there were 10 of them. All from incredibly posh backgrounds, who’s parents mostly worked in the arts as well.

It absolutely is the preserve of the wealthy and connected.

Taliskerskye · 22/05/2021 20:34

And what’s really interesting is that artists who came through in the post war years and had free degrees took chances on what they wanted to do from their heart,
So we had YBA. We had Tracey emin and Damien hirst. We had working class artists who took the world by storm. Now when I talk to well known artists they mostly went to Stowe and Eton and could afford to not succeed and not make money.

That’s exactly the same with actors. We now just have public school educated actors only.

Do people think all these fantastic artists and actors from working class or less wealthy backgrounds shouldn’t exist because you think the arts are a pointless degree for people who aren’t clever enough to do stem...

DdraigGoch · 22/05/2021 21:04

though I hope for all our sakes that design doesn't become taught via apprenticeships!
When the likes of Sir Kenneth Grange started out in the workplace, that's a rather dismissive attitude towards apprenticeships.

TheHateIsNotGood · 22/05/2021 21:30

I've always thought that categorizing my Social Policy degree as a BA was a bit wrong. It's not like Arts Art dahlings, although creative thought is/can be involved, as it is in any Discipline to varying degrees (pun not intended;, just as some Artists use scientific methods to achieve their Compostions and Pieces.

DdraigGoch · 22/05/2021 21:31

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

plenty of people didn't have a degree, instead having learned their craft at one of the theatre schools

The vast amount of drama schools have degrees

Or do you mean under 18 year olds? So they went to drama school as a child, those drama schools are few and far between outside of london. Dd still blames me for us not moving to LA for her career as a child star 😀

They have degrees now. They didn't always.
JaninaDuszejko · 22/05/2021 22:05

I think what this discussion shows more than anything else is that the two cultures in England is alive and well and A levels need to be scrapped and a broader education post 16 needs to be introduced (probably something similar to the traditional Scottish Highers and degree where you are admitted to a faculty rather than a degree and where you can do courses across the sciences and humanities and decide at the end if you get a BSc or MA). As a scientist so many of these comment just show complete ignorance of science and scientists, for example:

the entire vaccination program, track and trace - who do you think project manages that? Logistics of getting the vaccine - you don’t need a STEM degree for that.

I work for a pharma company, we are doing several Covid projects and all our programme managers have STEM degrees. Programme Management is all about soft skills but those can be acquired whether you have a science or a humanities degree and scientists who have worked their way up to programme management understand the idiolect (and all the teamwork in science is very good for developing soft skills). In fact out of several thousand employees across the world we have just a handful with non-STEM degrees. And even though we recruit many biologists I can tell you there is a skills shortage, to the extent that we offer degree apprenticeships, work with local universities to shape what they teach by providing lecturers and including offering well paid year in industry placements, and do a lot of outreach work in local schools all to increase the flow of science graduates through our door.

As it is unlikely they will be able to compete on salary with finance sector.

The finance sector is desperate for people with numerate degrees, a finance sector job is a STEM job. People aren't leaving STEM by moving into the finance sector.

A degree from a good university (or a good course at a mediocre university) in any subject adds value to an employee. STEM academics have worked together to lobby government and show the government the value even blue sky STEM research adds to the economy. STEM academics can talk the language of economics that means their contribution is recognised. Academics in the Humanities and Arts need to do the same thing to secure their future. That is their issue maybe a bit more analysis and soft skills when talking to government are needed.

And this idea that a science degree doesn't have value unless you work at the lab bench or an arts degree doesn't have value unless you are working at the BBC is ridiculous. ALL good degrees teach critical thinking and creativity. All good degrees teach transferable skills. But STEM jobs are more accessible to those who don't have cultural capital (Paul Nurse has spoken about this) and there is a shortage of women in STEM that needs to be addressed in primary school. Culturally Anglophone countries have a shortage of women in STEM because of this idea that you should do a job you 'love' or have 'natural ability' in, which has been repeated multiple times on this thread. In a culture that has very defined ideas about 'girls' interests and 'boys' interests this has long term impacts on womens job choices and pay. STEM jobs are well paid jobs with security, and good T&Cs. Medicine, Engineering, Pharma, Accountancy, Finance are all well paid STEM jobs. And none of the bollocks of unpaid internships. We should be encouraging our daughters to do them. That doesn't mean that degrees in the Humanities and Arts don't have value but think about why men congregate in STEM jobs.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 22/05/2021 22:06

They have degrees now. They didn't always

I know....sadly

TheKeatingFive · 22/05/2021 22:18

We should be encouraging our daughters to do them.

Even if their skills and passion lie elsewhere? This is what I question.

Though your post covers a lot of great points, particularly the acknowledgement that STEM grads require less cultural capital to be successful.

TheKeatingFive · 22/05/2021 22:20

We had working class artists who took the world by storm. Now when I talk to well known artists they mostly went to Stowe and Eton and could afford to not succeed and not make money.

This is a terrible shame. Particularly, as you point out, the fact that we’ve moved backwards.

TheHateIsNotGood · 22/05/2021 23:05

Agree with most of what Keating5 says and yes indeed it seems that we have gone backwards. I aver and hypothesise that the 'backwards' direction started with The Spice Girls (reasoning available upon request).

I further suggest that the reliance on 'rights', which are unevenly distributed throughout the workforce, is not helpful and does not serve equality well. Yes Legal Rights are necessary to equality but to rely on them negates the actual capabilities and abilities that any worker/productive person has.

An unintended consequence is that those professions and jobs that highly adhere to Equality Rights as Employment Policy tend to attract more Women who gravitate to these roles because of these Rights (eg: Teaching, Nursing, Civil Service).

Which doesn't help the Women who are very capable of following other professions such Finance, IT and Bricklaying.

TheKeatingFive · 22/05/2021 23:08

reasoning available upon request

Go on then Grin

JaninaDuszejko · 22/05/2021 23:12

Even if their skills and passion lie elsewhere? This is what I question.

We do our daughter a disservice if we don't point out that some jobs are better paid than others and some careers are more competitive than others and some careers are more secure than others. Following your passion might well result in long periods of unemployment (and that applies to scientists who go down the post doc route as much anyone with an arts degree who is determined to be a working historian). I absolutely tell my daughters that yes, music/drama/painting/football may be their passion but they only pay a tiny minority of people big bucks and the jobs are not secure (they've just seen a friend lose their well paid job in the theatre in the last year) and if they want a life as comfortable as we have with the work life balance that DH and I have those creative jobs are not going to provide it unless they think laterally. The middle classes have always encouraged their children into the professions because of the security. Passions are for the majority of people best kept out of the workplace.

Flaymproof · 22/05/2021 23:13

Even if their skills and passion lie elsewhere?

Think about why it lies elsewhere. Frequently it's because of parent or teacher influence and cultural stereotyping rather than "natural ability".

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TheKeatingFive · 22/05/2021 23:14

Think about why it lies elsewhere. Frequently it's because of parent or teacher influence and cultural stereotyping rather than "natural ability".

I don’t agree with that. I think it’s a complex mix of both nature and nurture.

TheKeatingFive · 22/05/2021 23:19

We do our daughter a disservice if we don't point out that some jobs are better paid than others and some careers are more competitive than others and some careers are more secure than others

I absolutely agree with the need for this conversation. But equally the need for our daughters to make their own decisions.

Following your passion might well result in long periods of unemployment

Sure, but it’s very far from the case that all STEM grads get jobs and all Arts grads don’t. Being interested and naturally good at your subject matters hugely.

Flaymproof · 22/05/2021 23:26

Sure, but it’s very far from the case that all STEM grads get jobs and all Arts grads don’t

Nobody is saying that. We're saying there are too many arts grads and not enough STEM grads. Arts grads are often ending up in STEM jobs and employers are having to pay to retrain them. Many STEM jobs end up recruiting from abroad.

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TheKeatingFive · 22/05/2021 23:30

Nobody is saying that. We're saying there are too many arts grads and not enough STEM grads.

And I’m saying that we shouldn’t be forcing our daughters into STEM subjects, regardless of interest or ability if they’d be happier / more successful with an arts degree.

TheHateIsNotGood · 22/05/2021 23:34

Well Keating to start off it seems that 'The Spice Girls' promoted female empowerment in terms of being 'sexy' and getting what 'you really really want' by holding men by their short and curlies, without actually physically being stronger. Although many Women are indeed physically stronger than many Men.

At the risk of sounding incredibly 'prudish', The Spice Girls (as marketed) seemed to promote the of wearing short skirts and exposing flesh as a 'symbol' of female empowerment.

The main beneficiaries of this were the clothing manufacturers who could charge the same prices for clothes that used far less materials and loads of blokes who had a lot more to goggle at than they did before, even more so since the rise of SM (that's Social Media not Sado-Masichism).

You asked I said Keating5 Grin.

Two wrongs don't make a Right.

Flaymproof · 22/05/2021 23:45

And I’m saying that we shouldn’t be forcing our daughters into STEM subjects

Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. The thread is about funding HE in a way that prioritises skills that are in-demand from employers rather than subjects that teenagers like the idea of doing. Your daughter may find there are fewer arts degrees on offer, and there is more competition for them, but if she's not good enough to get on her chosen course she can find something else to do, just as she would as a new graduate who can't get a coveted arts job. It just brings that process forward a 3 years and saves wasting taxpayers' money.

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