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Original poster

Higher education: Guardian article makes me want to vote Conservative

264 replies

Flaymproof · 21/05/2021 19:57

This opinion piece today is idiotic: amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/20/boris-johnson-arts-degrees-conservative-funds
Nobody is trying to ban arts degrees, and everyone can agree they have high value, but there are just too bloody many of them. While they have been up on their pedestal there has been a chronic shortage of STEM graduates and skilled tradespeople which is damaging to the economy. There has also been a shortage of teachers in these fields, which leads to a vicious circle. It's not about encouraging young people into higher paid jobs - that's just a carrot - it's about addressing a real need for certain skills and facing down the twentieth century myth, passed on by parents with their heads in the sand, that it doesn't matter what degree you have, so long as you have one.

OP posts:
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 21/05/2021 21:31

@BrightYellowDaffodil

Well there is. So you're wrong.

Always good to have a nuanced discussion.

I want to see people be able to do the degree they want to do, in subjects in which they're interested or about which they're passionate. Arts degrees shouldn't just be available to those who can afford it. Education shouldn't just be about your ultimate financial worth to the economy.

Yep

Surprised me to see history on the ‘list’ but as the poster upthread said It's pretty obvious why the government might prefer it if people hadn't studied history though

I also agree that degrees for 50% of children was a stupid idea, all that’s happened is that careers that didn’t need a degree now do

Morgoth · 21/05/2021 21:32

There isn’t a shortage of STEM graduates. What there is is a shortage of these STEM graduates continuing with pure STEM-related careers or going into science teaching. As previous posters have said, most physics and maths graduates end up as actuaries, data analysts or in high-level finance jobs. Actual pure science work as a scientist pays peanuts.

Keyring · 21/05/2021 21:41

50% don't need to go to uni.

Downscale it to 15% attending. Give those that need it a full grant/part grant - all paid for.

DelBocaVista · 21/05/2021 21:46

it's about addressing a real need for certain skills and facing down the twentieth century myth, passed on by parents with their heads in the sand, that it doesn't matter what degree you have, so long as you have one.

Firstly, this isn't a myth. Between 70- 80% of graduate jobs just ask for a degree - they don't specify subject.

As for reverting back to only 10% of the population going to university- great, if you want higher education to be the privilege of the elite!!

Keyring · 21/05/2021 21:49

@DelBocaVista

it's about addressing a real need for certain skills and facing down the twentieth century myth, passed on by parents with their heads in the sand, that it doesn't matter what degree you have, so long as you have one.

Firstly, this isn't a myth. Between 70- 80% of graduate jobs just ask for a degree - they don't specify subject.

As for reverting back to only 10% of the population going to university- great, if you want higher education to be the privilege of the elite!!

It won't be the elite 10% - because if poorer kids can get a full grant they're more likely to go to uni.

Our society is less mobile now - in terms of getting oneself up the ladder than it was in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Higher education should be based on intelligence not wealth.

malificent7 · 21/05/2021 21:49

Stem is not for everyone. I did a degree in arts which led to...teaching.
Now doing stem/ alleid health which leads to job ...same pay/ less stress.
I did a mix of art and science alevel...great decision!

Keyring · 21/05/2021 21:50

And while I remember, actors have said that acting schools are now full of middle class kids - because their parents can afford to send them there.

If you brought back grants then poorer kids could go to. It doesn't help any profession to only have people from a certain demographic.

Demelza82 · 21/05/2021 21:54

OP you are just as reactionary, lacking in critical thinking and easily triggered as the average Tory voter, enjoy your new life

DelBocaVista · 21/05/2021 21:55

It won't be the elite 10% - because if poorer kids can get a full grant they're more likely to go to uni.

Actually that's not true.
It wasn't the case when HE was essentially free and grants were available.

Our society is less mobile now - in terms of getting oneself up the ladder than it was in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Yes, social mobility has stalled. Drastically reducing the number of higher education places won't address that issue.

Higher education should be based on intelligence not wealth.

Yes it should. Unfortunately it doesn't really work like that.
We still see significant differences in who attends university and which university they attend - socioeconomic group and parental occupation and education are still major factors.

FaceyRomford · 21/05/2021 21:55

@Flaymproof

This opinion piece today is idiotic: amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/20/boris-johnson-arts-degrees-conservative-funds Nobody is trying to ban arts degrees, and everyone can agree they have high value, but there are just too bloody many of them. While they have been up on their pedestal there has been a chronic shortage of STEM graduates and skilled tradespeople which is damaging to the economy. There has also been a shortage of teachers in these fields, which leads to a vicious circle. It's not about encouraging young people into higher paid jobs - that's just a carrot - it's about addressing a real need for certain skills and facing down the twentieth century myth, passed on by parents with their heads in the sand, that it doesn't matter what degree you have, so long as you have one.
You are not alone OP. There are times I swear I will vote Tory next time after reading some singularly daft load of blather (Looking at you Toynbee. And you Monbiot) but it passes with time.
malificent7 · 21/05/2021 22:01

Arts have great capacity for earning...where woukd we be without design and great writing? Get your kids to play to threir strengths and if like me, they are average, encourage adequate proficiency

malificent7 · 21/05/2021 22:01

In both

Namenic · 21/05/2021 22:40

Loads of jobs don’t need a degree. The govt should think about how many places it funds but keep the cost the same as currently (except for a few specific shortage subjects).

Loads of people want to be vets. There are not many vet training places. It’s competitive - so the people selected on a given set of criteria get through. I would imagine it’s the same for sporting academy places or music colleges. I don’t see why it would be different for other things.

Andante57 · 21/05/2021 22:59

Personally I think many jobs do not require a uni degree and it is unfortunate that many companies put this as a requirement for jobs. It is changing though and some firms can take students straight after a level to do apprenticeships in engineering, accountancy etc

Namenic I agree. I begged my dc not to go to university as neither were interested in academic study but wanted to do what their friends were doing. The argument that clinched it was the requirement from many companies of a degree.
What a waste of time and money.
However it’s encouraging that you say more firms are offering apprenticeships.

Andante57 · 21/05/2021 23:00

@Demelza82

OP you are just as reactionary, lacking in critical thinking and easily triggered as the average Tory voter, enjoy your new life
What a spiteful comment.
Whoarethewho · 21/05/2021 23:01

There is a massive shortage of stem graduates particularly amongst women.

Londonmummy66 · 21/05/2021 23:02

I assume you have a scientific degree OP.

DdraigGoch · 21/05/2021 23:04

What's more interesting is that when you look at the cabinet, most of them have arts and humanities degree.
If ever there were a reason to change the system, this would be it.

TheKeatingFive · 21/05/2021 23:06

There is a massive shortage of stem graduates particularly amongst women.

What criteria is this based on?

What jobs are not being filled?

I understand that teaching jobs in this area are hard to fill, but I’d conclude that’s to do with teaching conditions rather than anything else.

paddingtonbearsmarmalade · 21/05/2021 23:10

Creativity is one of the main skills predicted to be heavily valued by employers in the future. Creative jobs & careers are least likely to be automated. Arts subjects support creative thinking and innovation. Humanities support critical thinking and analysis.

STEM subjects and arts and humanities subjects are equally valuable to society but in different ways. How many people would have survived the last year without films/TV/books/creative hobbies? Not to mention how literally everything you use, touch, wear on a daily basis has been designed - probably by someone with an arts qualification - possibly in conjunction with someone with a STEM qual.

Pitting the two against each other is ridiculous.

TheKeatingFive · 21/05/2021 23:11

Pitting the two against each other is ridiculous.

Exactly

LittleBearPad · 21/05/2021 23:17

STEM isn’t everything. Critical thinking and an appreciation for literature and history is useful.

DdraigGoch · 21/05/2021 23:23

@DelBocaVista

it's about addressing a real need for certain skills and facing down the twentieth century myth, passed on by parents with their heads in the sand, that it doesn't matter what degree you have, so long as you have one.

Firstly, this isn't a myth. Between 70- 80% of graduate jobs just ask for a degree - they don't specify subject.

As for reverting back to only 10% of the population going to university- great, if you want higher education to be the privilege of the elite!!

In most cases though, do those jobs requiring a generic degree actually need one or could they be done just as well by someone who spent 18-21 in the workplace?
myfuckingfreezer · 21/05/2021 23:26

80% of the fastest growing sectors employ more arts grads than stem grads

Of all grads, 89% of stem are employed BA 88% of arts.

Only three of the top ten highest growing wages are for stem subjects.

Arts grads are more resilient in recessions, keeping their jobs and their income levels.

Want to to explain again why kids should do stem?

DdraigGoch · 21/05/2021 23:29

@malificent7

Arts have great capacity for earning...where woukd we be without design and great writing? Get your kids to play to threir strengths and if like me, they are average, encourage adequate proficiency
Again though, do you get a great designer (of the non-technical sort) by having them write 15,000 words about it or would their time be better spent learning as an apprentice?
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