Sometimes I feel like this is George Orwell’s 1984

bitheby · 20/05/2021 14:41

YANBU

I'm a staunch remainer and even delivered leaflets to campaign for remain but unless we can discuss and debate issues that we disagree on then we don't live in a democracy. I'm all for free speech as long as it isn't criminal.

TeenMinusTests · 20/05/2021 14:44

YANBU

I find it disheartening that people with certain views are dismissed as being selfish / idiots / racist / uncaring or whatever. Some things like Brexit and Political Parties are nuanced and multi-faceted. You might vote for something even if you don't agree with all of it because for you the balance tips one way.

An that's before you even get on to people being cancelled because they stand up for women's rights.
Or people at university of all places no platforming people because of feeling 'triggered'.

oneglassandpuzzled · 20/05/2021 14:46

@bitheby

YANBU

I'm a staunch remainer and even delivered leaflets to campaign for remain but unless we can discuss and debate issues that we disagree on then we don't live in a democracy. I'm all for free speech as long as it isn't criminal.

I agree with this. I voted Remain but haven't fallen out with family and friends who voted Leave. I still disagree with them, but they're entitled to their opinions.

Love51 · 20/05/2021 14:49

I agree. It feels as if debate is being closed down. Back when I was at university I remember meeting people with views I didn't agree with. We would discuss them, sometimes someone would change position. Either way we would become friends! It feels now that if someone voices something you disagree with, then the done thing is to label them as bad and wrong and shun them, which is how people get radicalised.

Case in point I met a guy at uni, very early on. He had some homophobic views. We discussed why he had those views, some things he had been told as a child were not true, we discussed why he thought those things. He also met a bunch of out gay people, and got to know them as 3 dimensional people. FTA few months he was still a bit uncomfortable because changing your beliefs isn't quick and easy, but he went on to not have those views and have friendship with a range of people, including gay men and women.
I wonder now if he would just be told he was wrong and ignored, and become more entrenched in his homophobic viewpoints.

Love51 · 20/05/2021 14:56

Even if I don't agree with your viewpoint it is valuable to have it aired. It is important that we understand WHY people feel a certain way. I don't think all "leave" people are xenophobic but among my "remain" friends, that is the prevalent narrative. By understanding people's motivation you can sometimes find a consensus that pleases, perhaps not everyone, but lots of people. Eg if the trope were true that what "leave" people really wanted was blue passports and didn't give a toss about immigration or trade deals, we could have stayed in the EU and negotiated blue passports. Way easier than sorting out trade in NI!

tttigress · 20/05/2021 15:00

Debates are being closed down on a number of topics.

To understand how the media works, understand what is not being covered on the news is probably more important than what is being covered.

freakyfridays · 20/05/2021 15:02

you are confusing freedom of speech and individuals refusing to enter in a discussion with you.

RockWhatRock · 20/05/2021 15:03

The big problem is that no-one seems to be able to handle a difference of opinion or have a mature discussion about an issue you have differing views about. Nowadays, if you disagree with someone you’re automatically an “idiot” or “evil” or “scum”.

Devlesko · 20/05/2021 15:05

Just sometimes?

I often wonder whether George Orwell saw the future, or our Politicians see it the perfect manifesto.

Flyonawalk · 20/05/2021 15:08

Definitely right OP.

You know the last line of 1984 is ‘He loved Big Brother’. Substitute ‘He loved lockdown’ and you have the pandemic’s final destination.

Orf1abc · 20/05/2021 15:15

If my opinion or views differ from the ‘woke’ then it is clearly not valid!

When you use the term woke as a means of offence, it's no wonder that people don't wish to engage with you. If you can't be respectful to others, you shouldn't be surprised when people don't pay you the same courtesy.

CheesyCheddar17 · 20/05/2021 15:16

Freedom of speech protects you from arrest or prosecution (provided you are not making threats or targeting someone for protected characteristics). It does NOT, and hopefully never will, prevent people from choosing not to engage with you.

You have the right to voice your opinion on lockdown/brexit/covid/what have you, and others have the right not to listen. It goes both ways.

CheesyCheddar17 · 20/05/2021 15:19

Adding that I see this sentiment a lot in online spaces.. Surely if all these brave dissenters were truly being silenced by the government, then there wouldn't be so many of them complaining about it all the time?

Chanjer · 20/05/2021 15:19

YABU for invoking 1984

Sunflowers095 · 20/05/2021 15:22

@Namechangeforobv

Name change as my last thread attracted a lot of attention. Anyway, am I the only one that feels like freedom of speech is slowly dying?! If my opinion or views differ from the ‘woke’ then it is clearly not valid!

For example I voted to leave the EU, I chose this because leaving benefitted me more than staying. My personal circumstances, my personal choice.
Conversation starts at work about it, I was asked what I voted and immediately discussion closed because it was so “wrong” that I had voted this.

YABU for “no your wrong”
YANBU for “yes I agree”

Why did it benefit you? How?

I assume the discussion being closed might be that people don't find your reasoning very valid/sensible at all.

Silvergreen · 20/05/2021 15:24

Have you actually read 1984?

daffodills78 · 20/05/2021 15:29

Funny, I too feel that free speech is under threat, but not from the 'woke' but the new, vocal, intolerant conservatism (which isn't even really conservatism as we know it) and their supporters who actively vilify any opposition (the Jeremy Corbyn and Rebecca Long Bailey smear campaigns) or try to silence groups of people who campaign for equal rights such as BLM or environmental activists (see Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill), or try to restrict underprivileged groups' right to vote (photo ID being made compulsory to vote).

My values have always been aligned with the left but I didn't really engage in/follow politics until the Brexit vote which was the first jolt for me to this new reality, and then the 2019 general election and the Conservatives' brazen lies during their election campaign and their subsequent failures and messes, none of which appear to hurt them one bit, if anything the opposite. Since then a gradual chipping away at civil liberties, undermining the national, impartial broadcaster, and so on.

I was always friends with people who I knew were on the right on politics, socially etc, but didn't really speak up about my opinions, because I suppose I didn't feel my right to exist peacefully in this country (EU national) and express opinions as I saw fit was under threat! Silly me.

I'm not allowed to vote in general elections but expressed my support for the Labour party on social media leading up to the 2019 general election, and have posted quite a bit in support of BLM, about violence against women and girls, LGBT rights etc. I've been taken aback by the number of people who have since unfriended me or blocked me on social media or even complained about me in a professional setting when I expressed pro choice views on a social media chat. The same people who refer to millennials as 'snowflakes' and who wage war on the 'woke brigade' for apparently stifling free speech.

I have witnessed the discomfort and irritation of men when you bring up women's right to equal treatment (not being catcalled or harassed on the street, not being ridiculed or undermined in the workplace, not being subjected to everyday sexism), respect, equal pay and bodily autonomy (rape culture, reproductive rights). You get labelled as a troublemaker and a pain in the arse while the men remain the good guys.

It's not 'the woke' who are the threat to free speech.

slashlover · 20/05/2021 15:31

If my opinion or views differ from the ‘woke’ then it is clearly not valid!

Why wont the people I insult listen to my opinion?

H2OConnoisseur · 20/05/2021 15:32

Everything is so black and white these days. If you voted Tory, everything you say henceforth is dismissed because to others you're stupid, xenophobic, ignorant, selfish. If you disagree with those who go on and on about how sex work is empowering for women and that porn is great, you're anti-feminist, sex-negative, and have internalised misogyny. If you say something as simple as not wanting to write the words 'ciswoman' in your signature, you're transphobic, a 'boomer', a 'Karen'. Debate seems to be a thing of the past these days, especially in Uni, because say something that doesn't toe the 'woke' line and you will be cancelled and have your name and face plastered all over Twitter.

Mousetown · 20/05/2021 15:32

Are you being persecuted for talking about your views?

I usually find when people use words like “woke” and say “freedom of speech is dying” what they actually mean is that people are challenge their views and they don’t like it.

GroggyLegs · 20/05/2021 15:32

I feel like critical thought is dying.

I feel people are being forced to be performative - to prove the commitment to their beliefs for approval, rather than just being able to live by our own moral compass.

I feel we're getting more & more tribal, so if you don't agree on one point, you're out the tribe. Dissent to the group think will not be tolerated.

Personally, I think it's all shit and I'll end up an old lady in prison for not clapping or something.

TimeFlysWhenYoureHavingRum · 20/05/2021 15:33

Very happy to hear something positive about Brexit OP - can you say how it has benefitted you - would be great to know!

Chanjer · 20/05/2021 15:37

Are you being persecuted for talking about your views?

I usually find when people use words like “woke” and say “freedom of speech is dying” what they actually mean is that people are challenge their views and they don’t like it.

👍 You phrased that far more politely than I was going to manage

HarrietPierce · 20/05/2021 15:37

TimeFlysWhenYoureHavingRum Thu 20-May-21 15:33:56
"Very happy to hear something positive about Brexit OP - can you say how it has benefitted you - would be great to know!"

I would genuinely like to know also.

ChaBishkoot · 20/05/2021 15:39

Freedom of speech means the right to say it. People have the right not to listen or not to engage or to even say you are wrong.
That's not denying your freedom of speech.

If someone refused to serve you in a shop because you voted for Brexit (and the shop was badly hurt as a result of the economic chaos it caused) then that would be an attack on your freedom of speech.

Also our freedom of speech IS limited. I can't say slanderous things. I cannot use hate speech and claim freedom of speech. I cannot incite violence. Freedom of speech has never been without qualification.

Frankly, a lot of people with mostly right wing views have found that the state has allowed them to express these views openly (immigration is evil, structural racism doesn't exist, people on benefits are lazy etc) and are then surprised by people who push back on these views and then say 'but but but my freedom of speech should let me say these things.' Yes, feel free. But be prepared then to engage in either robust debate or to have people NOT want to befriend you or engage with you.